When you say, "I'm not a feminist" you mean...

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kamiyu910
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27 Jul 2015, 10:52 am

I came across this comic: What They Mean When They Say I'm Not A Feminist

Which doesn't cover why I say I'm not a feminist. On the facebook thread, I wrote:

kamiyu910 wrote:
I don't consider myself a feminist, but a humanist, because I can't focus on one group alone.
I've been seeing a lot of feminists say that they stand for men's rights too and that that's what feminism is all about, but the name is for one group rather than all groups. Humanist encompasses making everyone equal.
I've also been seeing a lot of people claiming to be feminists who only want to raise females (sans trans) above males. There are people who claim trans are betraying their gender (female to male), or equating male to female like someone putting on black face (oppressor trying to become the oppressed).
I just want everyone to be nice to everyone else... *shrug*


Someone else wrote:
Bob wrote:
Generally, what someone says is what they mean. If they meant something else, they'd say that thing instead.

Which was followed by this comment, which confuses me.
Frank wrote:
How horrible for anyone to imply that there be more context to someone's story than what they explicitly state. I mean it's not like one could be both a feminist and a humanist at the same time, actively recognizing that systemic gender discrimination follows patterns similar to other forms of systemic discrimination... Oh wait. Great comic. Last panel wins it.


I feel like this person is trying to be satirical, but I feel like I'm missing something in his comment, especially in reference to the last panel (which says that people who say they don't need feminism are blind to the injustices women face). I'm assuming he's talking to me, since I was the only one who used Humanist in the thread, but I really don't consider myself a feminist AND a humanist. I can be a humanist without having an extra bunch of label for each individual group, because humanism is supposed to cover that, I thought. Or am I confused about what Humanism is?


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Janissy
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27 Jul 2015, 11:43 am

I think the sarcasm was directed at the person who wrote 'Generally what someone says is what they mean. If they meant something else, they'd say that thing instead". Not at you. You did use the term 'humanist' but the person who wrote the middle comment implied the whole cartoon was based on a nonsensical concept (because people always mean exactly what they say). You implied that the concept was sound but your reason didn't fit in any of the panels.

Your reason sort of fit in the second panel down from the top since you bring up the friction between feminists and trans women. But the panel was written from the point of view of the trans woman so it isn't a perfect fit. They could probably put several more panels on spelling out the wide variety of reasons but then it would just get cumbersome.

The person with the middle comment is just wrong. Generally people say what they mean? Hahahhahaha. No.



kamiyu910
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27 Jul 2015, 5:12 pm

What you explained makes sense.

Unfortunately, the thread has turned into a "You're either with us or against us" sort of mentality and this other person who is commenting is saying something but I'm not sure what he's meaning. He quoted the first part of a comment I made, then claimed I was wrong and proceeded to write almost exactly what I had said in the rest of the comment as if correcting me (thus saying I was wrong and right all at the same time??). I dunno, it's like we're speaking two completely different languages, and he's only reading my comments to respond, rather than to try to understand. Which is rather hypocritical, men telling a woman how she should think and what she should call herself? Lol.

It seems they take people saying they aren't feminists as a personal insult, as if these people don't have valid reasons and are wildly attacking feminism just by saying they don't use the label... I should avoid discussing such things with people who are too blinded by their radical beliefs. Or something like that.

I find that the people here are much much easier to talk to. I don't get misunderstood near as often.


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adifferentname
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27 Jul 2015, 5:36 pm

kamiyu910 wrote:
Or am I confused about what Humanism is?


Not at all. It's just that you've accidentally wandered into an intolerant and bigoted echo chamber. The irony of these people talking about 'privilege' while claiming the power to speak on behalf of not only their proponents, but their detractors too, is simply staggering.

Although, of course, Humanism is something of a confusing term as its modern meaning is at odds with its historical meaning.



kamiyu910
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27 Jul 2015, 8:38 pm

The word games these people play... They claim they believe one thing but their words and actions indicate something else. Like they say, "You do have a choice." But the instant I choose, they claim I'm wrong to choose what I did. That's like that woman who said slavery was a choice; you either went willingly or died.

I see things in such a wide variety and that's apparently too weird of a concept for people to think about? I can see no two people as believing the same exact things, so I don't understand why people can't accept other people think differently. With these feminists (a bunch of men telling me, a woman, how to think and what to believe... and that I'm wrong...) it's like all they can see is that if you aren't 100% with them, you're 100% against them, and therefore will view what I say through tinted glasses and assume I'm against them and assign meaning where there isn't any.


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01 Aug 2015, 11:19 pm

kamiyu910 wrote:
Unfortunately, the thread has turned into a "You're either with us or against us" sort of mentality

That's because feminism is a toxic, dogmatic movement.



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01 Aug 2015, 11:35 pm

I mean I don't find females to be more important than males....I mean the idea made sense to get equal rights, but I am confused about exactly what rights I have denied that males don't as I am not aware of anything specific. I've heard statistically males get paid more, but not sure all the various factors or what segments of the population are surveyed so not entirely sure what to make of that. I mean there is not a law on the books that says 'women shall be paid less' or if there is I suppose it needs removing.

But the term itself bothers me currently....and it seems some who identify as such are way too extreme with it. I am sure I would agree with some of them on a lot of things but I don't care to make a spectacle of myself and make everything about my gender whenever I feel there is an injustice. Seems to be a generally dividing term as well.


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kamiyu910
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01 Aug 2015, 11:59 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean I don't find females to be more important than males....I mean the idea made sense to get equal rights, but I am confused about exactly what rights I have denied that males don't as I am not aware of anything specific. I've heard statistically males get paid more, but not sure all the various factors or what segments of the population are surveyed so not entirely sure what to make of that. I mean there is not a law on the books that says 'women shall be paid less' or if there is I suppose it needs removing.

But the term itself bothers me currently....and it seems some who identify as such are way too extreme with it. I am sure I would agree with some of them on a lot of things but I don't care to make a spectacle of myself and make everything about my gender whenever I feel there is an injustice. Seems to be a generally dividing term as well.


I agree. I mentioned in the thread that started this that I didn't believe the term feminism really covered everything, and that the name itself was dividing (which was apparently a great insult. I don't see how).

As to the "women get paid less" myth, from what I've read, they've taken averages of all women and all men in the US and put them together without much thought into whether more women work minimum wage jobs and more men work CEO type jobs, which would be a better comparison, I think. And is it their choice to work a lower wage job? It was my mom's choice to work in a library while my dad worked in a lab making twice as much as she did.

Things have gotten so much better and I can't think of a legal right that men have that women don't, aside from things like going topless (which is at least legal in New York city, lol). There are a lot more little things (I think they call them microaggressions?) which can cause people to start nitpicking and seeing sexism where there isn't any. And of course we still have plenty of people who view their sex as more superior. Plenty of men who think women should be in the kitchen, and plenty of women who think men need to work to support their family. However, that's not a legal thing, that's something that has to change in each individual person. Making it illegal to do things isn't going to help change how people think (like men spreading legs, or women having their purse take up a seat, on a subway)

I can never tell who is being serious anymore, either, with how extreme some of the more vocal people have gotten. I think the "eye-rape" thing is serious? But the fart-rape is a mockery... I dunno. I'm just in the boat of "let's make the world a better place for everyone."


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adifferentname
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02 Aug 2015, 1:42 am

kamiyu910 wrote:
I'm just in the boat of "let's make the world a better place for everyone."


The problem with that boat is that everyone is paddling in a different direction. Better to jump in a lifeboat and save a handful at a time.



kamiyu910
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02 Aug 2015, 11:54 am

adifferentname wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
I'm just in the boat of "let's make the world a better place for everyone."


The problem with that boat is that everyone is paddling in a different direction. Better to jump in a lifeboat and save a handful at a time.


But who to save first? ^.^

Mostly I just try to make an example with myself, by treating people with as much respect and understanding as I can (even the people who are absolute jerks). Most of the time I can only make one person's life a little better at a time, like leaving art laying around for people to find or being part of the gifting community or donating.

Unfortunately, I think people see me being nice and think I'm a pushover and when they find out how bullheadedly stubborn I am, it pisses them off... lol. It'll probably take me a while longer before I find something that really works.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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02 Aug 2015, 12:00 pm

Equality is a better word.



Ettina
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02 Aug 2015, 12:06 pm

kamiyu910 wrote:
As to the "women get paid less" myth, from what I've read, they've taken averages of all women and all men in the US and put them together without much thought into whether more women work minimum wage jobs and more men work CEO type jobs, which would be a better comparison, I think. And is it their choice to work a lower wage job? It was my mom's choice to work in a library while my dad worked in a lab making twice as much as she did.


I don't get how that's supposed to refute the claim that women get paid less. Ever thought to wonder why so many women are not employed or employed at lower-paying jobs? Even if it's their choice, why are women making that choice more often than men?



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02 Aug 2015, 12:53 pm

Ettina wrote:
I don't get how that's supposed to refute the claim that women get paid less.


I don't get why it matters as long as women get paid as much as their equally skilled, equally qualified, equally experienced and equally meritorious peers. If you have any examples of this not happening, I'd be the first to support you.

Quote:
Ever thought to wonder why so many women are not employed or employed at lower-paying jobs?


You ask this fully aware of the massive amounts of resources that have gone into studying exactly that. Your question is disingenuous, manipulative and, frankly, dishonest.

Quote:
Even if it's their choice, why are women making that choice more often than men?


Because men weren't given that choice until very recently. Fairly obvious when you think about it.



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02 Aug 2015, 12:57 pm

Im not a feminist because Im not always angry.


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kamiyu910
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02 Aug 2015, 1:04 pm

Ettina wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
As to the "women get paid less" myth, from what I've read, they've taken averages of all women and all men in the US and put them together without much thought into whether more women work minimum wage jobs and more men work CEO type jobs, which would be a better comparison, I think. And is it their choice to work a lower wage job? It was my mom's choice to work in a library while my dad worked in a lab making twice as much as she did.


I don't get how that's supposed to refute the claim that women get paid less. Ever thought to wonder why so many women are not employed or employed at lower-paying jobs? Even if it's their choice, why are women making that choice more often than men?


That's a far more complicated answer, one that I can only speculate on except with the people I know and myself. I know that women get paid what a man does when doing the same job, but from what I've seen it seems that men are more likely to advance to higher positions like CEO. Why that is, is a complicated answer I don't know.

I do know that women are still far more likely to want to stay home with the kids, but more than that is that our country has no real paid paternity or maternity leave. In fact, I don't think there's any paternity leave... We have enacted certain care systems in some states that allow for no legal ramifications up to 6 weeks, I believe (as in the parent will still have a job), but that's still unpaid and you have to fit the qualifications, which I believe some part timers don't fit.
Image
When I was pregnant with my first kid, I discovered after I was about 6 months along that I didn't actually qualify for anything. For some programs, I made too much money, other programs I worked too few hours. And then there was the child care costs... It would have cost us money for me to continue working so it was more beneficial for me to quit since my husband had a good secure job. I know the cost of childcare causes a lot of families to have one parent stay home... That is something we can try to fix, at least.

We still have the stigma that the woman has to stay home while the man brings in the cash, and I've seen the backlash families who go the opposite receive. The parenting wars are a scary scary place where mommy groups are full of horrible judgmental "I parent better than you" people... There's often this "How can you trust your husband to do everything right with the kid?" thought process that causes uncertainty in mothers who would otherwise have been fine leaving baby with the dad. I've seen mommy groups cause such discord in families that they split up.

Aside from the problems in the parenting world, looking at the women I know who work, I've seen a few different mindsets. Some women love working at a low level job, while others with more ambition are able to rise to the CEO area but are met with more judgement from other women for it. It's not just men being misogynistic about having a woman for a boss, but other women as well. It all stems from the same stigma of women need to be submissive. It is probably going to take years before that goes away, and as I've said before, it's on an individual level that it needs to change.

There's also the idea that I see people touting around is that "women suck at math and science." The scientists I know experience a lot of misogynistic problems from their colleagues, though it's becoming less of a problem. I've heard of teachers dissuading girls from studying math or science because of this idea that they're "just not good at it." Some female scientists have had their ideas stolen. I would expect some women scientists have also stolen ideas themselves just to get ahead. It's a field that's competitive and I wish it wasn't so, as they've shown that groups work better than individuals (for the most part).

Also, how many people have the idea that females can't work on computers? And men can't sew? I know that females and males are biologically, physiologically different and that there are tasks better suited to the majority of women (look at the olympics and compare the expectations of the men vs women), but we have a lot of crossover as well. The idea that women shouldn't be firefighters is based on the idea that a firefighter will be required to lift a fellow firefighter in full gear and rush down a flight of stairs without falling, and most women cannot do this. We've had people complain that that's sexist, but honestly, do you want to rush into a burning building with someone who can't carry you out? My FIL doesn't. He has known women who have been able to do so, however, and he does trust those women with his life. Exceptions to every rule.

There are a lot of stigmas and problems... some we can work on, others it's up to the individuals to change the way they think. Or get phased out.


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