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MindBlind
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28 Jul 2015, 4:32 am

One of the reasons I struggle to call myself a feminist is the assertion that male privilege is somehow analogous to white privilege.

Oftentimes, my feminist friends and peers will discuss gender relations in much the same way as we discuss race relations and oftentimes males are talked about as if they are the ones who exclusively benefit from sexism. Now, fair enough, many feminists will acknowledge that sometimes patriarchy "backfires" on men and that so called "positive sexism" exists. However I really resent this line of reasoning because, as a white person, I have never ever seen white privilege "backfire" on me in any way. The only disadvantages I face as a white person is that I burn in the sun and I probably carry the genes for cystic fibrosis, but that's about it.

Men, on the other hand, are the group with the highest suicide rate, the most likely to be murdered and assaulted, the highest workplace death rate, the ones to die earlier than women, the largest homeless population and the least likely to have custody of their children. They are most likely to have problems with reading and writing in school and often perform badly in the classroom, they are the vast majority of the incarcerated, they are severely under-diagnosed for mental illness, which I believe is because men are less inclined to ask for help due to stigma. We also hardly ever acknowledge how many men actually are the victims of rape, sexual assault and domestic abuse. When men ask for help, they are often ridiculed and pushed aside. In my country, male rape victims aren't even acknowledged if they are raped by women.

I think it's important to look at gender issues as a two-tier system. Women are objectified in that they are considered valuable prizes to be won and men are objectified in that they are a human shield and disposable. This is not "patriarchy backfiring", this is precisely what the "patriarchy" is for. At the end of the day, you've got two groupF of people forced into restrictive roles that they are hardly allowed to deviate from. feminism has allowed women to deviate a lot from their roles and its time the feminist movement acknowledges that men need this too. I don't wanna hear any of this s**t about how men are more restricted because somehow femininity is considered to be "shameful" because, frankly, you're being willfully ignorant and refuse to acknowledge the seriousness of this problem.

We need to discuss toxic masculinity WITHOUT throwing men under the bus. We need to shut up about how women are affected by mens actions now and again and just focus on what the men face. It's not going to undermine women's issues if we just throw men a f*****g bone every once in a while.

And it's so insulting to minorities as well because white people are not at all facing systemic discrimination for being white while men are facing systemic problems for being male.



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28 Jul 2015, 10:52 am

Your experience isn't the only experience, there is nothing inherent in the shade of skin color that you have that means you all automatically share some base level of "privilege". The same could be said about gender or any x-privilege, we're all individuals with our own stories and it doesn't help anybody to generalize. If privilege was inherent it wouldn't be privilege it would be superiority, so is that what you believe? I don't. There is nothing in my blood or skin color that guarantees me anything.

Half of those living in poverty in this country are white, yes minorities disproportionately so but I don't see how that makes this huge population any less worthy of concern. These "poor white trash" are as maligned and demonized as minority poor but they don't really have any legitimate voice or advocate on their behalf. Turn on TV and its basically a minstrel show on every channel from that perspective. What do you think would be the natural reaction in somebody that gets told that because of the color of their skin that they are more fortunate and essentially better when they're in the same socioeconomic class? They're going to feel like they've been robbed, that leads to scapegoating and placing blame which brings division and hatred. Cui bono? There is a reason for everything, capitalists divide and conquer the proles against each other by race. Most discussion in the media only amounts to emotionally manipulative culture war bickering and partisan political theater. Political correctness handcuffs our speech and what we can talk about, there should no restriction on free expression. We need to try to understand each other, silencing thoughts and opinions only leads to more resentment.



kamiyu910
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28 Jul 2015, 7:06 pm

In talking with the more extreme feminists and those who are called Social Justice Warriors, I've discovered they don't think on an individual level, they only think in groups. Therefore, ALL of group X experiences the same thing. Such as all black people are horribly abused by the system and there is no exception, and they are not required to show proof of their innocence when arrested but should automatically be assumed innocent (I had to read that comment a few times... but that's what they said.)

Since I don't hold with the "all women" or "all men" or "all whatever" ideas they do, they ridiculed me, called me racist, sad I was being willfully ignorant, I was ignoring the problem, and everything else. They don't want to hear that everyone has problems, and that everyone is subjected to some form of discrimination. On an individual basis, it varies greatly. There are black people who have it easier than some white people. However, the system still does have some biased and still does need to be worked on.

As far as genders go, there are problems on both sides, and I've been blocked and insulted for telling some feminists that not all men rape, when they said they do. I've seen people who are probably posting satirically, but people end up agreeing with the sentiment, that men cannot be raped.
I have seen people, and have screenshots, that talk about how it's a good experience for men to be raped. Others are glad the suicide rate for men is so high. Others just plain deny that men have any problems at all, that they are the ultimate power and enemy. Our society tells men they need to suck it up and hide their problems, that it's not ok to talk about it because radicals will jump down their throats and invalidate their experiences, saying women have it worse.

Neither has it worse anymore, we have it different. I hate that they feel the need to invalidate someone else's experience because of their gender or race. I hate that I have been invalidated, shot down, because I'm white. I was accused of trying to downplay what black people go through even though I wasn't even comparing my experience to anyone else's.

Another woman was chased out of the group and hounded and bullied because she posed a hypothetical situation where a woman might be wary of Middle Eastern men because she was raped by one. The group ended up twisting her words and telling others that she said, "It's good for people to be afraid of black people and Middle Eastern people because they will rape you." When I tried to show them in screenshots that that wasn't what she said, they turned on me too.

I hate that I don't fit into any groups because I think too broadly. I was told on Facebook I would lose friends if I continued to post things that didn't focus on systemic racism in the US. I replied I wouldn't lose real friends, which pretty much dropped my friend count by about 20 and being blocked by multiple people.


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MindBlind
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01 Aug 2015, 6:59 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Your experience isn't the only experience, there is nothing inherent in the shade of skin color that you have that means you all automatically share some base level of "privilege". The same could be said about gender or any x-privilege, we're all individuals with our own stories and it doesn't help anybody to generalize. If privilege was inherent it wouldn't be privilege it would be superiority, so is that what you believe? I don't. There is nothing in my blood or skin color that guarantees me anything.

Half of those living in poverty in this country are white, yes minorities disproportionately so but I don't see how that makes this huge population any less worthy of concern. These "poor white trash" are as maligned and demonized as minority poor but they don't really have any legitimate voice or advocate on their behalf. Turn on TV and its basically a minstrel show on every channel from that perspective. What do you think would be the natural reaction in somebody that gets told that because of the color of their skin that they are more fortunate and essentially better when they're in the same socioeconomic class? They're going to feel like they've been robbed, that leads to scapegoating and placing blame which brings division and hatred. Cui bono? There is a reason for everything, capitalists divide and conquer the proles against each other by race. Most discussion in the media only amounts to emotionally manipulative culture war bickering and partisan political theater. Political correctness handcuffs our speech and what we can talk about, there should no restriction on free expression. We need to try to understand each other, silencing thoughts and opinions only leads to more resentment.


Wait, nobody is saying that being white means you can never face misfortune in your life or that you don't experience socio-economic problems. I agree - we're all individuals. What I'm saying is that white people in most western countries do not experience institutionalized racism, regardless of our situation. In many ways, we benefit from racism (or at the very least we aren't the target of it). Many feminists will say that men's issues are a form of social collateral damage caused by patriarchy, but white people don't experience collateral damage from white privilege. If we even suggest this notion to most non white folk, they'd laugh at you. My point is that men's issues are caused by gender expectations that are pushed onto both genders and that gender is not treated as a social class.



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01 Aug 2015, 7:26 pm

MindBlind wrote:
Women are objectified in that they are considered valuable prizes to be won


How is that even bad? Few things would make me happier at this point than seeing someone pathetically spending their time, energy and money trying to win me, only to be publicly rejected by me with a haughty sneer, so they make a complete fool of themself for everyone to see.

MindBlind wrote:
and men are objectified in that they are a human shield and disposable. This is not "patriarchy backfiring", this is precisely what the "patriarchy" is for.


"Patriarchy" is just a fancy name. There's no way around the biological fact that we males are the expendable sex.


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adifferentname
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01 Aug 2015, 7:30 pm

MindBlind wrote:
Wait, nobody is saying that being white means you can never face misfortune in your life or that you don't experience socio-economic problems. I agree - we're all individuals.


You haven't looked very hard if you believe nobody is saying that.

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What I'm saying is that white people in most western countries do not experience institutionalized racism, regardless of our situation.


There are so many things wrong with this statement that I'm not sure where to start. I can think of hundreds of examples of socially acceptable racism towards white people within my country alone. Casual racist epithets aimed at Irish, Scottish, Welsh, French, etc people are still expressed in popular media in the UK.

Additionally, if one is of the opinion that there is institutionalised racism against non-white people, white people too are being made victims of an innacurate stereotypical standard that you are establishing as the 'default' and to which you ascribe a measure of blame.

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In many ways, we benefit from racism (or at the very least we aren't the target of it).


I'm interested to hear how I benefit from racism. Please explain it to me.

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Many feminists will say that men's issues are a form of social collateral damage caused by patriarchy, but white people don't experience collateral damage from white privilege.


Define patriarchy. Define white privilege.

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If we even suggest this notion to most non white folk, they'd laugh at you.


That sounds rather racist to me.

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My point is that men's issues are caused by gender expectations that are pushed onto both genders and that gender is not treated as a social class.


The form of issue you describe is only applicable if you choose to aspire to these undefined expectations. The chains people choose for themselves are nobody's problem but their own.



Robin Banks
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03 Aug 2015, 1:09 pm

gender cannot be a social class. you can't have a social class made up of only one gender, because they would have to mate with other social classes just to create the next generation. the whole concept of a social class is that they are, in one way or another, isolated from other classes, either by their own choice, or by the choices of people from another social class. how ridiculous would it be if men decided to build a society and exclude women. even if they could travel to other places to find women, they would be making it that much harder for themselves to find mates. you can't have a society, class, neighborhood, or whatever, consisting of only one gender. this kind of thinking comes from feminists perceiving that a woman's role in society is somehow "lower" than a man's role. meaning that because women in the past would take care of the home and raise children, while men worked outside the home, this somehow made them a "lower" social class. These women must not have been very satisfied with their marriages. can you imagine thinking of your husband or wife as being in a different social class, and resenting them for it?



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06 Aug 2015, 7:40 pm

Women are just insecure, that's why they're always thinking they're... a lower... something or other.


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mds_02
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06 Aug 2015, 8:52 pm

I agree completely.

Whenever I try to argue against the concept of male privilege, people's first reaction is to try to explain to me what privilege is. But I already understand and agree with the basic concept. I recognize my cis/hetero privilege, there are no disadvantages to belonging to those two groups. I recognize that, because I look white, I get a great big chunk of the benefits of white privilege.

It is not the idea that certain groups are privileged that I have a problem with. Nor do I have problem with acknowledging the fact that I belong to several of those privileged groups. My only problem with the idea of privilege is when it is applied to men because it gets in the way of addressing the problems men face, problems that are just as serious and occur just as frequently as any that women face.

I agree that there are certain situations where it is advantageous to be a man. But too many people focus exclusively on those situations, refusing to recognize the very frequent situations where being male is an enormous disadvantage. Or the fact that many of those disadvantageous situations are literally matters of life and death to the men who deal with them.


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1401b
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06 Aug 2015, 9:52 pm

MindBlind wrote:
toxic masculinity

LOL WTF?


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mds_02
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06 Aug 2015, 10:15 pm

1401b wrote:
MindBlind wrote:
toxic masculinity

LOL WTF?


One example might be men's perceived need to hide emotional issues and deal with them privately, which is likely a contributing factor to their higher risk of both drug/alcohol addiction and suicide.


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07 Aug 2015, 12:51 am

mds_02 wrote:
I agree completely.

Whenever I try to argue against the concept of male privilege, people's first reaction is to try to explain to me what privilege is. But I already understand and agree with the basic concept. I recognize my cis/hetero privilege, there are no disadvantages to belonging to those two groups. I recognize that, because I look white, I get a great big chunk of the benefits of white privilege.


You have just defined privilege as meaning "has no disadvantages". That's the problem I have with this utterly contemptible substitute for thinking. It's like a crazy game of top trumps with zero nuance. No point wasting time on understanding people when we can just put them in the appropriate box and deal with them as a collection of arbitrarily ordered privileged groups right?

All this before we even get to the assertion that there are no advantages to being 'cis' or heterosexual. Advantages in relation to what? I can think of a variety of advantages to being homosexual over being heterosexual, one of which is the fundamental understanding of the physiology of a sexual partner.

A recent disadvantage of being heterosexual and cis is that you are not free to explore your femininity at certain pride events that are banning drag acts on the grounds that a transgender person might potentially find your personal exploration of identity upsetting. This is an example of the real world outcomes of these dangerous and stupid politics.

Quote:
It is not the idea that certain groups are privileged that I have a problem with. Nor do I have problem with acknowledging the fact that I belong to several of those privileged groups. My only problem with the idea of privilege is when it is applied to men because it gets in the way of addressing the problems men face, problems that are just as serious and occur just as frequently as any that women face.


A rejection of the idea of male privilege is an idea of the entire concept of privilege on precisely the grounds I already raised. Heterosexual, man and cis are not three separate entities, they're elements of a human being.

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I agree that there are certain situations where it is advantageous to be a man. But too many people focus exclusively on those situations, refusing to recognize the very frequent situations where being male is an enormous disadvantage. Or the fact that many of those disadvantageous situations are literally matters of life and death to the men who deal with them.


Instead of wasting time trying to quantify every single variable that determines which of us is the most advantaged, how about we all exercise a little humility and gratitude that we get to be anything at all? We were all born with the advantage of being human beings. Anyone who loses sight of that almost deserves to feel they're less than one.



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07 Aug 2015, 1:10 am

adifferentname wrote:
A recent disadvantage of being heterosexual and cis is that you are not free to explore your femininity at certain pride events that are banning drag acts on the grounds that a transgender person might potentially find your personal exploration of identity upsetting. This is an example of the real world outcomes of these dangerous and stupid politics.


That's a thing now, banning drag queens?? o.O Why can't people just people leave others be as long as they're not harming others? Or is the potential for upsetting someone by being yourself considered harmful, but that only applies to... wait. I'm really confused now. And I thought social rules were difficult to understand before...

adifferentname wrote:
Instead of wasting time trying to quantify every single variable that determines which of us is the most advantaged, how about we all exercise a little humility and gratitude that we get to be anything at all? We were all born with the advantage of being human beings. Anyone who loses sight of that almost deserves to feel they're less than one.


I like that line, we were all born. We're all alive. We're in this together, yet people seem to want to tear us apart from the inside out. :?

Someone recently posted a Buzzfeed "Privilege Checklist" and so I figured what the heck and did it, and got a 39/100. Some of the people I know got upwards of 55. My best friend got a 12. Yet, he's been considered privileged (online only) because he's male and married to a woman. It's fascinating to me how people perceive privilege. In Adelanto, someone with a car is considered privileged. With A/C? Whoa.
Somewhere like Beverly hills, if you drive a slightly older Honda, you're very underprivileged. It feels like there are layers of privilege. You have the privilege of your area, the privilege of the state, the country, and then the world.

I keep trying to understand privilege better, in the ways people keep talking about it. Privilege seems to be dependent on an average, and what most people seem to be using is the entire United States as a baseline. Which seems to end up having a poor white boy growing up in Compton getting lumped in with a rich white guy on Wall Street, and a rich black kid in Malibu getting lumped in with a poor black kid in Philly. It feels like there's this massive generalization to which everyone must be judged by and it confuses me.


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07 Aug 2015, 1:51 am

I have known men who don't like having a woman boss. Why? Because then it's right in their face that they are inferior to a woman.

Whites or males thinking of themselves as "privileged" makes me think they are deeply insecure, and they need this crutch of privilege to bolster their egos.



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07 Aug 2015, 2:12 am

kamiyu910 wrote:
That's a thing now, banning drag queens?? o.O Why can't people just people leave others be as long as they're not harming others? Or is the potential for upsetting someone by being yourself considered harmful, but that only applies to... wait. I'm really confused now. And I thought social rules were difficult to understand before...


It actually is a thing, yes. Free Pride Glasgow (google it) took this stance because "It was felt that it would make some of those who were transgender or questioning their gender uncomfortable.".

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I like that line, we were all born. We're all alive. We're in this together, yet people seem to want to tear us apart from the inside out. :?


Thank you for the appreciation. It horrifies me how much we focus on our differences instead of those things which make us the same.

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Someone recently posted a Buzzfeed "Privilege Checklist" and so I figured what the heck and did it, and got a 39/100. Some of the people I know got upwards of 55. My best friend got a 12. Yet, he's been considered privileged (online only) because he's male and married to a woman. It's fascinating to me how people perceive privilege. In Adelanto, someone with a car is considered privileged. With A/C? Whoa.

Somewhere like Beverly hills, if you drive a slightly older Honda, you're very underprivileged. It feels like there are layers of privilege. You have the privilege of your area, the privilege of the state, the country, and then the world.


Do you happen to have a link to that? I would be interested in seeing how they've presented it.

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I keep trying to understand privilege better, in the ways people keep talking about it. Privilege seems to be dependent on an average, and what most people seem to be using is the entire United States as a baseline. Which seems to end up having a poor white boy growing up in Compton getting lumped in with a rich white guy on Wall Street, and a rich black kid in Malibu getting lumped in with a poor black kid in Philly. It feels like there's this massive generalization to which everyone must be judged by and it confuses me.


I'm not sure there is much to understand. Its only practical application seems to be as a tool to silence or shout over those who disagree with you by reducing them to something subhuman.

LoveNotHate wrote:
I have known men who don't like having a women boss. Why? Because then it's right in their face that they are inferior to a woman.


I'm not a fan of having any boss, man or woman. Does that make me an egomaniac? :lol:

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Whites or males thinking of themselves as "privileged" makes me think they are deeply insecure, and they need this crutch of privilege to bolster their egoss.


I'd prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt. I think they're trying to do the right thing, but they've naively swallowed the current popular brand of BS without passing it through their critical faculties. There are going to be a lot of deeply messed up men to deal with in the near future.



kamiyu910
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07 Aug 2015, 2:28 am

adifferentname wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
Someone recently posted a Buzzfeed "Privilege Checklist" and so I figured what the heck and did it, and got a 39/100. Some of the people I know got upwards of 55. My best friend got a 12. Yet, he's been considered privileged (online only) because he's male and married to a woman. It's fascinating to me how people perceive privilege. In Adelanto, someone with a car is considered privileged. With A/C? Whoa.

Somewhere like Beverly hills, if you drive a slightly older Honda, you're very underprivileged. It feels like there are layers of privilege. You have the privilege of your area, the privilege of the state, the country, and then the world.


Do you happen to have a link to that? I would be interested in seeing how they've presented it.


It's right here. I feel like it's supposed to be targeting a specific group, based on the questions involved. I still only got a 39, which it claims is underprivileged. I was expecting something more, but maybe I just have a brighter view of my life than I thought? :?

Buzzfeed: How privileged are you?


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