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evilreligion
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19 Aug 2015, 11:55 am

Adamantium wrote:
evilreligion wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
i am self-diagnosed and the autistic self-advocacy network knew that and accepted me as an autistic writer for their communications team. they are strongly against people without disabilities making decisions for folks with disabilities. their entire board is autistic. they understand that folks my age (59) did not have access to diagnosis when we were young and don't always have a pressing need to get a diagnosis having gotten by so long without one. thinking that a diagnosis makes a person a better representative of the autistic community is unfounded and unfair.

I think being autistic makes a person a better representative of the autistic community. I think that many of the SJW's who claim autism are not autistic. They are either frauds or they are mistaken in their self diagnosis. It is one thing for a 59 year old to self diagnose after a lifetime of experience and self reflection and entirely another for a 17 year old kid to do the same.


It seems to me that you are saying they can't be autistic because they disagree with you.

Nope. They could be autistic, they might not be. Who knows? The problem is that no one knows not even them. So when they claim to speak as an autistic person and, more importantly, tell me I need to shut the f**k up because I am not autistic then we have a problem.
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It also seems that you are of another generation than the people you are complaining about and I wonder if the differences you notice might not be attributable to that. I find the whole anti-free speech tone that seems popular among college students today deeply shocking and unethical, but it does seem to be a thing with those young people.

I think it is a generational thing. The millennial generation has been raised under the whole self esteem culture where everyone is special. This I think leads to the narcissism required for the SJW mentality. Or on the other hand I'm just an old fogy who's out of touch.
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Your position actually seems more like theirs than you might think. Only the authentic, board certified autistic can legitimately speak on these issues, etc. More than a little like one of the SJWs you find so objectionable.

hmmm the difference is that they use the "fact" that they are autistic to try and stifle anyone who opposes them. I think anyone can talk about autism ad long as they have done their research and speak from a position if knowledge. I think autistic people themselves clearly have special knowledge that NTS do not and that knowledge needs to be respected. The problem is that anyone can claim to be autistic so if we are going to give special respect to the autistic point if view then I kind if need to see their credentials. Otherwise their opinion is no more valid or worthy of attention than some random nt. now this is not to say that random NT's can't contribute to the discussion it's just they can't claim the extra knowledge and wisdom that an autistic person has. Does that make sense? Sorry I'm rambling a bit and have just had sone really bad news so might not be making sense.



Lukeda420
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19 Aug 2015, 12:04 pm

^ Post your diagnostic results so we can make sure YOU actually are autistic. That's the only way to be sure.

That's the thing about the internet, anyone can say anything. Stop complaining about people complaining. It sounds ridiculous. You know you always have the option of ignoring trolls.

Don't feed the trolls. (although this thread is a veritable buffet for them)



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19 Aug 2015, 12:38 pm

^
Responding to long, substantive and level-headed posts with short, seemingly intentionally befuddled ones full of ridicule and accusations of trolling makes you look like the troll.


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19 Aug 2015, 12:42 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
^
Responding to long, substantive and level-headed posts with short, seemingly intentionally befuddled ones full of ridicule and accusations of trolling makes you look like the troll.


I've following this thread for a little while. I offered my opinion earlier. This thread has been going on circles for a while now.

Besides I meant the supposed "SJW's he's complaining about are the trolls.



evilreligion
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19 Aug 2015, 12:48 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
^ Post your diagnostic results so we can make sure YOU actually are autistic. That's the only way to be sure.

Was that addressed to me?
If so I will direct your attention to the places above where I quite clear state that I am not autistic.

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That's the thing about the internet, anyone can say anything.

Indeed. But in the context of this discussion I fail to see why faking being NT would be relevant.
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Stop complaining about people complaining.

So you are complaining about people who complain about people who complain. Need I spell out the absurdity of this?
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It sounds ridiculous.

But not quite as rediculous as complaining about people who complain about people who complain though surely? :D



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19 Aug 2015, 1:04 pm

Yeah it was, but the point I was making is anyone can claim something online and there is no practical way to get proof, you just have to use your best judgement. And I'm not complaining, I'm just offering a remedy for your original issue. I don't really care what you're complaining about, I've just been watching this thread for entertainment.



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19 Aug 2015, 1:06 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
I've following this thread for a little while. I offered my opinion earlier. This thread has been going on circles for a while now.

Besides I meant the supposed "SJW's he's complaining about are the trolls.


You complain about a "staggering lack of critical thinking", a thing you yourself seem to be guilty of, as well as asserting that all these points have been "overwhelmingly debunked" (while also pretending to see no points), which is a rather convenient assertion to make for someone with no intention of offering substantial rebuttal. Sorry, but even when "offering your opinion", you come across as trollish.


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19 Aug 2015, 1:39 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:
I've following this thread for a little while. I offered my opinion earlier. This thread has been going on circles for a while now.

Besides I meant the supposed "SJW's he's complaining about are the trolls.


You complain about a "staggering lack of critical thinking", a thing you yourself seem to be guilty of, as well as asserting that all these points have been "overwhelmingly debunked" (while also pretending to see no points), which is a rather convenient assertion to make for someone with no intention of offering substantial rebuttal. Sorry, but even when "offering your opinion", you come across as trollish.


I don't think you quite understood my posts. The one about the person not having a point, was directed to the person who responded to my post, not everyone on the thread. Also I don't think you know what a troll is. I'm not posting on here to stir sh#t up, I'm just posting my observations. Besides why would I argue about minutiae of these posts when I feel the entire premise is flawed?



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19 Aug 2015, 2:11 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
I didn't read cathlynn's post, so my post is not reply to hers.

I think it is unethical to speak as an autistic person without an official diagnosis.
One can always speak as a person with autistic traits or BAP without misrepresenting anything.
Many parents of autistic children have autistic traits, but are not diagnosed, and the ones I have met don't speak as autistic people, but do mention their autistic traits.

To me, there is nothing complex about this issue of speaking as autistic person.
If someone doesn't have diagnosis, don't speak as autistic person.
There are alternatives that still allow these people to advocate if they want to.


Thanks clarifying. In principle, I agree with your points, but in practice, I don't see a reason to tell older people like Cathylynn that they must get diagnosed if this is difficult and brings them no benefit. I don't see a way to hold the general principle that you have expressed without dealing with the reality that this dogma will be running up against real individuals like Cathylynn. But perhaps this is just my mental habit of making abstraction concrete by considering examples.

In the context of this discussion, I am generally against the idea of specially privileged viewpoints. "It's a group X thing, you wouldn't understand" is an essentially invalid position, in my view. So the "as an X, I can say things about X-related issues, and non-X have no right to speak on the matter" is wrong. Groups are really made of individuals and individual experiences.

Part of what is wrong with a person who may not be autistic claiming to speak on behalf of other autistic people is that that person may discuss personal experiences as typical of autism that are highly atypical among autistics and so confuse the question of what characteristics are really part of the spectrum.

e.g., "as an autistic person, I have lots of friends, communicate easily with many people and find small talk easy and pleasurable"

That's bad because it confuses things and wrong because it makes the claim to a privileged position because of group identity.

I think experience matters, so if you have had experiences you can speak about them with a knowledge that a person who has not had those experiences simply doesn't have. You can always speak about personal experience with authenticity regardless of group membership status.

Forgive my somewhat rambling discourse, I am thinking this through.



Last edited by Adamantium on 19 Aug 2015, 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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19 Aug 2015, 2:16 pm

^^^ I agree with what you said, and you said it better than I ever could have. Thanks for posting that.



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19 Aug 2015, 2:57 pm

Adamantium wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
I didn't read cathlynn's post, so my post is not reply to hers.

I think it is unethical to speak as an autistic person without an official diagnosis.
One can always speak as a person with autistic traits or BAP without misrepresenting anything.
Many parents of autistic children have autistic traits, but are not diagnosed, and the ones I have met don't speak as autistic people, but do mention their autistic traits.

To me, there is nothing complex about this issue of speaking as autistic person.
If someone doesn't have diagnosis, don't speak as autistic person.
There are alternatives that still allow these people to advocate if they want to.


Thanks clarifying. In principle, I agree with your points, but in practice, I don't see a reason to tell older people like Cathylynn that they must get diagnosed if this is difficult and brings them no benefit. I don't see a way to hold the general principle that you have expressed without dealing with the reality that this dogma will be running up against real individuals like Cathylynn. But perhaps this is just my mental habit of making abstraction concrete by considering examples.

In the context of this discussion, I am generally against the idea of specially privileged viewpoints. "It's a group X thing, you wouldn't understand" is an essentially invalid position, in my view. So the "as an X, I can say things about X-related issues, and non-X have no right to speak on the matter" is wrong. Groups are really made of individuals and individual experiences.

Part of what is wrong with a person who may not be autistic claiming to speak on behalf of other autistic people is that that person may discuss personal experiences as typical of autism that are highly atypical among autistics and so confuse the question of what characteristics are really part of the spectrum.

e.g., "as an autistic person, I have lots of friends, communicate easily with many people and find small talk easy and pleasurable"

That's bad because it confuses things and wrong because it makes the claim to a privileged position because of group identity.

I think experience matters, so if you have had experiences you can speak about them with a knowledge that a person who has not had those experiences simply doesn't have. You can always speak about personal experience with authenticity regardless of group membership status.

Forgive my somewhat rambling discourse, I am thinking this through.


A person who is not diagnosed but has autistic traits can still speak about autism, advocate for autism causes, and be taken seriously by others. I am ackshuly more likely to take seriously someone who doesn't self-diagnose, as they are not misrepresenting themselves.


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19 Aug 2015, 3:16 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
A person who is not diagnosed but has autistic traits can still speak about autism, advocate for autism causes, and be taken seriously by others. I am ackshuly more likely to take seriously someone who doesn't self-diagnose, as they are not misrepresenting themselves.


That is logical and consistent. I don't think in most instances in real life I would question someone's veracity or diagnostic status if they declared themselves to be autistic unless they exhibited some behavior that seemed inconsistent with their declaration, so I don't think I would take someone either more or less seriously because of some conjecture about their diagnostic status--it isn't something I would think about.

Edited to add: given your wonderful work and focus, it's not surprising that you would think in a more precise and focused way about this.



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19 Aug 2015, 3:59 pm

As far as what I call SJWs go, there is no comparison to social justice activists. I cannot abide by them, nor will I ever. They are bullies and I am tired of being attacked for the smallest reasons. Like when I said I don't call myself a feminist, but if someone were to label me, humanist would fit better. Apparently that's some sort of great insult. Telling someone they were factually incorrect for saying all men are rapists and that them saying so was offensive got me blocked and banned from a site.

I had a large group of women I thought were supposed to be my friends turn on me and call me racist and sexist, and claimed I was trying to screenshot them to post in an MRA group so I could laugh at them (all flat out lies) because 1. I posted the results of a study on domestic violence that I found interesting and 1. Because I wasn't focusing on systemic racism in the US. I was call racist, and people were saying I was trying to convince people systemic racism doesn't exist because I was posting about other things that concerned me as well as systemic racism. Because I wasn't posting ONLY about it, I was called racist and I found out that a large number of people I thought were friends were backstabbing people.

They said I was naive for not thinking like them. For not being able to see the world the way they see it. They had no proof, they couldn't possibly prove something that isn't true, but that didn't stop them. A few of them blocked me because they became afraid of me, even though I have never, nor will I ever, do anything like what they said I *might* do. And because I've said they thought these things of me, other people who think like them will side with them, and believe they must have had cause for it.

They are one sided hypocrites who are dismissive to people they deem "bad" and seeing them turn on their own is horrible. More and more people are realizing how dangerous it is. One wrong step and boom, blacklisted, doxed, put on a troll list, harassed, whatever floats their boat. They are terrorists of their own sort. And if you don't fit this criteria, chances are you're not an SJW.


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19 Aug 2015, 7:26 pm

So basically SJW's are using autism as an excuse for their poor behavior? Man, what is it with people discriminating against autism? :roll: :roll: :roll:


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20 Aug 2015, 1:46 pm

evilreligion wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
i am self-diagnosed and the autistic self-advocacy network knew that and accepted me as an autistic writer for their communications team. they are strongly against people without disabilities making decisions for folks with disabilities. their entire board is autistic. they understand that folks my age (59) did not have access to diagnosis when we were young and don't always have a pressing need to get a diagnosis having gotten by so long without one. thinking that a diagnosis makes a person a better representative of the autistic community is unfounded and unfair.

I think being autistic makes a person a better representative of the autistic community. I think that many of the SJW's who claim autism are not autistic. They are either frauds or they are mistaken in their self diagnosis. It is one thing for a 59 year old to self diagnose after a lifetime of experience and self reflection and entirely another for a 17 year old kid to do the same.


When that 59 year old is also a physician, her self-diagnosis does have a little more weight that the average person's. Doctors aren't infallible, but they do tend to rely on empirical data rather than gut instinct. :wink:


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