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Jacoby
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16 Aug 2015, 8:43 am

Unions have their place, the ones we hear the most from are the public employees unions which should of never been allowed because they negotiate against the taxpayer and cycle the money they raise back into political lobbying the legislature who draw up their union contracts. A normal union has to understand that they can't bleed a company too much or they will go out of business but there is no such restriction in government, they can always lobby for more taxes/borrowing/debt.



glebel
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16 Aug 2015, 11:45 am

Jacoby wrote:
Unions have their place, the ones we hear the most from are the public employees unions which should of never been allowed because they negotiate against the taxpayer and cycle the money they raise back into political lobbying the legislature who draw up their union contracts. A normal union has to understand that they can't bleed a company too much or they will go out of business but there is no such restriction in government, they can always lobby for more taxes/borrowing/debt.

How anyone can justify the existence of unions in this day and age is beyond me. In years past, they performed a vital service by protecting workers, but now they are parasites sucking on the blood of workers and society in general. Case in point, the recent Longshoremen strike in the L.A. area, the main port on the West Coast. These over paid putzes held the bulk of the U.S. population hostage and cost our economy in excess of one billion dollars. There is plentiful legislation in place to prevent the abuses of the past. We need to get rid of the unions! :x


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16 Aug 2015, 11:52 am

^ In all fairness we do owe a lot to unions. At one time in my home region the steel mills and coal companies were sh*****g all over thier workers and even deliberately killing them. The unions were instrumental in putting a stop to that and that cannot be forgotten. We're into the 21st century now and the bigger part of what unions did is now handled by regulatory agencies.

And yes, the unions will bleed a company dry out of greed, protect slackers, and hinder productivity over trivialities until the doors have to be closed for good.


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Fnord
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18 Aug 2015, 8:52 am

U.S. Steel To End Steelmaking Operations At Storied Alabama Plant

Another union-run factory closes because it can no longer compete in an open market, while dozens of smaller "scab" steel mills remain open and thrive.



glebel
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18 Aug 2015, 12:47 pm

Fnord wrote:
U.S. Steel To End Steelmaking Operations At Storied Alabama Plant

Another union-run factory closes because it can no longer compete in an open market, while dozens of smaller "scab" steel mills remain open and thrive.

The way things are going, any business that is a union shop will end up going under. They spend too much money on deadwood and not enough on modernizing equipment and plants. We need to both eliminate unions and enact higher tariffs with every country except Canada and possibly the U.K. and a very few others. I read an article a few years ago about how many American steel mills are converting over to making specialty metals for very limited markets. You can't call that a healthy business plan, but apparently that's all that they can do given the triple whammy that government, unions, and short-sighted consumers are dealing the industry.


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Fnord
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18 Aug 2015, 12:59 pm

glebel wrote:
... I read an article a few years ago about how many American steel mills are converting over to making specialty metals for very limited markets. You can't call that a healthy business plan, but apparently that's all that they can do given the triple whammy that government, unions, and short-sighted consumers are dealing the industry.
It's called "Niche Marketing", and it's a viable way of staying in business. Sort of like specialty restaurants.



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19 Aug 2015, 8:17 pm

RichardJ wrote:
Fnord wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
we have unions to thank for safe working conditions, sick days, vacation, the end of child labor, the 40-hr. work week to name a few.
We also have Louis Pasteur for inventing the process for making milk safe.

That was all in the past. What are unions doing today, besides raking in money from dues, and closing shops to non-Union workers?

Seriously, what have the unions done for us lately?

Absolutely nothing!

All unions have succeeded in doing is moving American industry to China. Is it any wonder that the only competitive states in the country are right to work?


Because of the Steelworkers Union, my dad was able to provide my mom and me with a middle class lifestyle, complete with medical benefits. My mom was able to stay home and raise me instead of working. Finally, my dad was able to retire with a comfortable pension. How was that a bad thing? I thought the promise of capitalism was for everyone to prosper. These days, big business and their political allies seem to think that if workers aren't languishing with low wages, no benefits, and long hours, then businesses are somehow losing money, and can justifiably pull up stakes to go to some third world hellhole like China or Texas. I'd say the problem with outsourcing has more to do with corporate greed than with unions driving companies away. The corporate mindset is so very shallow, as they seem to only care about the short term benefit, while disregarding the long term benefits of having a working populace with disposable income who would be a permanent and reliable customer base.
As for right to work states being economically successful - only if you at the pinnacle of a corporation. Everyone else lives as an exploited underclass, with no guarantee that the jobs they have today will be there tomorrow, with low wages, and absolutely no benefits. Incidentally, many workers in right to work states have to rely on food stamps and other government benefits in order to survive, then are ridiculed by their corporate overlords and their conservative allies for being lazy slackers.


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19 Aug 2015, 9:32 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
RichardJ wrote:
Fnord wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
we have unions to thank for safe working conditions, sick days, vacation, the end of child labor, the 40-hr. work week to name a few.
We also have Louis Pasteur for inventing the process for making milk safe. That was all in the past. What are unions doing today, besides raking in money from dues, and closing shops to non-Union workers?m Seriously, what have the unions done for us lately?
Absolutely nothing! All unions have succeeded in doing is moving American industry to China. Is it any wonder that the only competitive states in the country are right to work?
Because of the Steelworkers Union, my dad was able to provide my mom and me with a middle class lifestyle, complete with medical benefits. My mom was able to stay home and raise me instead of working. Finally, my dad was able to retire with a comfortable pension. How was that a bad thing? I thought the promise of capitalism was for everyone to prosper. These days, big business and their political allies seem to think that if workers aren't languishing with low wages, no benefits, and long hours, then businesses are somehow losing money, and can justifiably pull up stakes to go to some third world hellhole like China or Texas. I'd say the problem with outsourcing has more to do with corporate greed than with unions driving companies away. The corporate mindset is so very shallow, as they seem to only care about the short term benefit, while disregarding the long term benefits of having a working populace with disposable income who would be a permanent and reliable customer base. As for right to work states being economically successful - only if you at the pinnacle of a corporation. Everyone else lives as an exploited underclass, with no guarantee that the jobs they have today will be there tomorrow, with low wages, and absolutely no benefits. Incidentally, many workers in right to work states have to rely on food stamps and other government benefits in order to survive, then are ridiculed by their corporate overlords and their conservative allies for being lazy slackers.
Again, sir, what have the unions done for us lately?. How about in just the last ten years?

Seriously, I'm asking.



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19 Aug 2015, 9:59 pm

Fnord wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
RichardJ wrote:
Fnord wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
we have unions to thank for safe working conditions, sick days, vacation, the end of child labor, the 40-hr. work week to name a few.
We also have Louis Pasteur for inventing the process for making milk safe. That was all in the past. What are unions doing today, besides raking in money from dues, and closing shops to non-Union workers?m Seriously, what have the unions done for us lately?
Absolutely nothing! All unions have succeeded in doing is moving American industry to China. Is it any wonder that the only competitive states in the country are right to work?
Because of the Steelworkers Union, my dad was able to provide my mom and me with a middle class lifestyle, complete with medical benefits. My mom was able to stay home and raise me instead of working. Finally, my dad was able to retire with a comfortable pension. How was that a bad thing? I thought the promise of capitalism was for everyone to prosper. These days, big business and their political allies seem to think that if workers aren't languishing with low wages, no benefits, and long hours, then businesses are somehow losing money, and can justifiably pull up stakes to go to some third world hellhole like China or Texas. I'd say the problem with outsourcing has more to do with corporate greed than with unions driving companies away. The corporate mindset is so very shallow, as they seem to only care about the short term benefit, while disregarding the long term benefits of having a working populace with disposable income who would be a permanent and reliable customer base. As for right to work states being economically successful - only if you at the pinnacle of a corporation. Everyone else lives as an exploited underclass, with no guarantee that the jobs they have today will be there tomorrow, with low wages, and absolutely no benefits. Incidentally, many workers in right to work states have to rely on food stamps and other government benefits in order to survive, then are ridiculed by their corporate overlords and their conservative allies for being lazy slackers.
Again, sir, what have the unions done for us lately?. How about in just the last ten years?

Seriously, I'm asking.


Let them rise to prominence and power again, where they can reverse the trend of workers losing ground economically, and we'll see what they'll do for us.
By the way, as all workers enjoy an eight hour day, over time, workman's comp, unemployment, etc, I'd say we all still owe unions a lot, as all those started out as union ideas.


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19 Aug 2015, 11:53 pm

In other words: nothing.

I suggest, sir, that you may be looking to a romanticized past and a hope-filled future, but not to the cold, hard reality that is the present.

Sure, unions were helpful in the past, and may be helpful once again in the future, but the former is akin to ancestor worship, while the latter is merely wishful thinking.



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20 Aug 2015, 12:38 am

Fnord wrote:
In other words: nothing.

I suggest, sir, that you may be looking to a romanticized past and a hope-filled future, but not to the cold, hard reality that is the present.

Sure, unions were helpful in the past, and may be helpful once again in the future, but the former is akin to ancestor worship, while the latter is merely wishful thinking.


Unionized workers still get better pay and benefits than their non-unionized counterparts. Unions fight for progressive causes in the political arena, which helps the poor, disabled, racial and sexual minorities, and others. Sounds to me like unions are still doing a decent enough job.


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20 Aug 2015, 6:16 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
In other words: nothing. I suggest, sir, that you may be looking to a romanticized past and a hope-filled future, but not to the cold, hard reality that is the present. Sure, unions were helpful in the past, and may be helpful once again in the future, but the former is akin to ancestor worship, while the latter is merely wishful thinking.
Unionized workers still get better pay and benefits than their non-unionized counterparts. Unions fight for progressive causes in the political arena, which helps the poor, disabled, racial and sexual minorities, and others. Sounds to me like unions are still doing a decent enough job.
if what you say is true ...



Kraichgauer
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20 Aug 2015, 11:55 am

Fnord wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Fnord wrote:
In other words: nothing. I suggest, sir, that you may be looking to a romanticized past and a hope-filled future, but not to the cold, hard reality that is the present. Sure, unions were helpful in the past, and may be helpful once again in the future, but the former is akin to ancestor worship, while the latter is merely wishful thinking.
Unionized workers still get better pay and benefits than their non-unionized counterparts. Unions fight for progressive causes in the political arena, which helps the poor, disabled, racial and sexual minorities, and others. Sounds to me like unions are still doing a decent enough job.
if what you say is true ...


It is.


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20 Aug 2015, 12:25 pm

^^^ Yes. I'm fed up with all unions being lumped into one category and demonized as being all-powerful, corrupt, wealthy, and greedy. However, I know that many people who already believe that unions are evil aren't open to other possibilities, so I'll just reiterate "unions have done--and still are doing--good things for our society" and be done. Take it or leave it.



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20 Aug 2015, 12:28 pm

KimD wrote:
^^^ Yes. I'm fed up with all unions being lumped into one category and demonized as being all-powerful, corrupt, wealthy, and greedy. However, I know that many people who already believe that unions are evil aren't open to other possibilities, so I'll just reiterate "unions have done--and still are doing--good things for our society" and be done. Take it or leave it.


Thank you for your support! :D


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21 Aug 2015, 12:10 pm

Fnord wrote:
glebel wrote:
... I read an article a few years ago about how many American steel mills are converting over to making specialty metals for very limited markets. You can't call that a healthy business plan, but apparently that's all that they can do given the triple whammy that government, unions, and short-sighted consumers are dealing the industry.
It's called "Niche Marketing", and it's a viable way of staying in business. Sort of like specialty restaurants.

While I have to agree that we need businesses that can supply the specialty products, we will not have a national economy that works without American suppliers of the things we use on a daily basis. This is not a healthy economic model.


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