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glebel
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30 Sep 2015, 10:21 am

eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
There are plenty of Baptists and Catholics out there to spread the manure. And I'm sorry to say, my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (which can aptly be called a "conservative mainline church) has jumped on the homophobic bandwagon - something that pisses me off to no end.


There's always ELCA.


The problem with that is, my home congregation has done so much for my family and me, I don't see myself bailing on people who might as well be my family. That, and the ELCA's leaders seems so intent on ecumenical unity that they apparently are willing to achieve this through compromising away Lutheran theology, and I like my Lutheran theology. Besides, Missouri Synod Lutherans in my home region of the Pacific Northwest are not nearly as conservative as they are in the Midwest, where the church leadership tends to be centered.


My mother always wanted to change to Missouri Synod.

Several years ago, there was an enormous vote at our local church to decide whether to stay in the ELCA or join the ALC. It was amazing that we had about 150 people vote when a typical Sunday now is about 20 to 30 people.

I've noticed that a number of locals now go to a different Lutheran church in a nearby town that is Missouri Synod. I've often wondered if that was because the ELCA won the vote.

I'm sure that that is the case. My church was an ELCA congregation, and when they got into politics, we were the first church to leave ( we joined the AALC). If the vote would have gone differently, I certainly would have gone back to the LCMS, even though I don't much care for the national leadership. This would have entailed a 120 mile round trip, so it would have been a pain. However, seeing as how I know people in that congregation through Via De Christo, I could be comfortable there.
However, I would once again be in the position of having to explain to those Germans that you can be French and still be a Lutheran. :lol:


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Chakravartin
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30 Sep 2015, 10:29 am

The question should be if secular and religious non-profit organizations should have to pay taxes, no they shouldn't.

If one has to pay taxes, then the other should too. If one doesn't, then the other should too.


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30 Sep 2015, 10:30 am

Churches are not political!! !

http://www.newrepublic.com/blog/plank/1 ... -dare-you#

Are churches and mosques subject to government or are governments subject to a church or mosque?

I suggest that churches had better kowtow or be prepared to be dismantled if they choose to go against government.

Churches and mosques are just another corporate entity that can be crushed if they go against the law of the land which is government run and not run by a God.

Regards
DL



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30 Sep 2015, 10:34 am

Chakravartin wrote:
The question should be if secular and religious non-profit organizations should have to pay taxes, no they shouldn't.

If one has to pay taxes, then the other should too. If one doesn't, then the other should too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyy0ykPqZn0

http://www.tampabay.com/americas-worst-charities/

Thieves should be taxed.

Regards
DL



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30 Sep 2015, 1:56 pm

glebel wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
There are plenty of Baptists and Catholics out there to spread the manure. And I'm sorry to say, my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (which can aptly be called a "conservative mainline church) has jumped on the homophobic bandwagon - something that pisses me off to no end.


There's always ELCA.


The problem with that is, my home congregation has done so much for my family and me, I don't see myself bailing on people who might as well be my family. That, and the ELCA's leaders seems so intent on ecumenical unity that they apparently are willing to achieve this through compromising away Lutheran theology, and I like my Lutheran theology. Besides, Missouri Synod Lutherans in my home region of the Pacific Northwest are not nearly as conservative as they are in the Midwest, where the church leadership tends to be centered.


My mother always wanted to change to Missouri Synod.

Several years ago, there was an enormous vote at our local church to decide whether to stay in the ELCA or join the ALC. It was amazing that we had about 150 people vote when a typical Sunday now is about 20 to 30 people.

I've noticed that a number of locals now go to a different Lutheran church in a nearby town that is Missouri Synod. I've often wondered if that was because the ELCA won the vote.

I'm sure that that is the case. My church was an ELCA congregation, and when they got into politics, we were the first church to leave ( we joined the AALC). If the vote would have gone differently, I certainly would have gone back to the LCMS, even though I don't much care for the national leadership. This would have entailed a 120 mile round trip, so it would have been a pain. However, seeing as how I know people in that congregation through Via De Christo, I could be comfortable there.
However, I would once again be in the position of having to explain to those Germans that you can be French and still be a Lutheran. :lol:


May I ask, where in France did your people come from? I ask, because I had some people very far back in my line who came from Alsace, a German speaking area, but part of France, no less. Same applies to Lorraine. Or were they French speaking Lutherans?


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30 Sep 2015, 2:03 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
There are plenty of Baptists and Catholics out there to spread the manure. And I'm sorry to say, my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (which can aptly be called a "conservative mainline church) has jumped on the homophobic bandwagon - something that pisses me off to no end.


Kraichgauer wrote:
The problem with that is, my home congregation has done so much for my family and me, I don't see myself bailing on people who might as well be my family. That, and the ELCA's leaders seems so intent on ecumenical unity that they apparently are willing to achieve this through compromising away Lutheran theology, and I like my Lutheran theology. Besides, Missouri Synod Lutherans in my home region of the Pacific Northwest are not nearly as conservative as they are in the Midwest, where the church leadership tends to be centered.


Clearly then, there actually *is* an end to your pissed off-edness, and it stops just short of jumping *off* the homophobic bandwagon.

Okay, that was clearly *not* said with the mature, adult demeanor I intended. I apologize. I just found out last night that my dad still goes to Church on Sunday and drops his envelope into the basket...all the while appearing to lament with us when the Pope says my daughter and I are mentally ill threats to humanity equal to nuclear weapons and my wife and I should not have been allowed to marry. And some of that money he gives them every week goes directly to the Church's efforts to make sure we do not have legal equality. Again, I apologize.

May I ask - since my Dad won't answer honestly - how does it work? How do people reconcile the two, please? I just don't understand, and it hurts.


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30 Sep 2015, 2:23 pm

Edenthiel wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
There are plenty of Baptists and Catholics out there to spread the manure. And I'm sorry to say, my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (which can aptly be called a "conservative mainline church) has jumped on the homophobic bandwagon - something that pisses me off to no end.


Kraichgauer wrote:
The problem with that is, my home congregation has done so much for my family and me, I don't see myself bailing on people who might as well be my family. That, and the ELCA's leaders seems so intent on ecumenical unity that they apparently are willing to achieve this through compromising away Lutheran theology, and I like my Lutheran theology. Besides, Missouri Synod Lutherans in my home region of the Pacific Northwest are not nearly as conservative as they are in the Midwest, where the church leadership tends to be centered.


Clearly then, there actually *is* an end to your pissed off-edness, and it stops just short of jumping *off* the homophobic bandwagon.

Okay, that was clearly *not* said with the mature, adult demeanor I intended. I apologize. I just found out last night that my dad still goes to Church on Sunday and drops his envelope into the basket...all the while appearing to lament with us when the Pope says my daughter and I are mentally ill threats to humanity equal to nuclear weapons and my wife and I should not have been allowed to marry. And some of that money he gives them every week goes directly to the Church's efforts to make sure we do not have legal equality. Again, I apologize.

May I ask - since my Dad won't answer honestly - how does it work? How do people reconcile the two, please? I just don't understand, and it hurts.


I don't know your dad, but maybe he sees himself as a member of his home congregation first, and a member of the larger church secondly, if at all. That's how I see myself. And yes, I am anti-homophobic - I make my opinions about homophobia well known in my church, despite that I am mostly disagreed with. Belonging to a church - especially if it entails a lifelong relationship, as in my case - is very much akin to belonging to a family, in that it's difficult to just cut your ties and walk away over a disagreement.
Wait a minute, you say the Pope says you can't marry, and are a threat to humanity? If we're talking about gay marriage here, then perhaps you should tell your dad that marriage is in fact a legal contract that doesn't need to be performed in a church to be real, let alone recognized by the government.


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30 Sep 2015, 2:55 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
There are plenty of Baptists and Catholics out there to spread the manure. And I'm sorry to say, my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (which can aptly be called a "conservative mainline church) has jumped on the homophobic bandwagon - something that pisses me off to no end.


Kraichgauer wrote:
The problem with that is, my home congregation has done so much for my family and me, I don't see myself bailing on people who might as well be my family. That, and the ELCA's leaders seems so intent on ecumenical unity that they apparently are willing to achieve this through compromising away Lutheran theology, and I like my Lutheran theology. Besides, Missouri Synod Lutherans in my home region of the Pacific Northwest are not nearly as conservative as they are in the Midwest, where the church leadership tends to be centered.


Clearly then, there actually *is* an end to your pissed off-edness, and it stops just short of jumping *off* the homophobic bandwagon.

Okay, that was clearly *not* said with the mature, adult demeanor I intended. I apologize. I just found out last night that my dad still goes to Church on Sunday and drops his envelope into the basket...all the while appearing to lament with us when the Pope says my daughter and I are mentally ill threats to humanity equal to nuclear weapons and my wife and I should not have been allowed to marry. And some of that money he gives them every week goes directly to the Church's efforts to make sure we do not have legal equality. Again, I apologize.

May I ask - since my Dad won't answer honestly - how does it work? How do people reconcile the two, please? I just don't understand, and it hurts.


I don't know your dad, but maybe he sees himself as a member of his home congregation first, and a member of the larger church secondly, if at all. That's how I see myself. And yes, I am anti-homophobic - I make my opinions about homophobia well known in my church, despite that I am mostly disagreed with. Belonging to a church - especially if it entails a lifelong relationship, as in my case - is very much akin to belonging to a family, in that it's difficult to just cut your ties and walk away over a disagreement.
Wait a minute, you say the Pope says you can't marry, and are a threat to humanity? If we're talking about gay marriage here, then perhaps you should tell your dad that marriage is in fact a legal contract that doesn't need to be performed in a church to be real, let alone recognized by the government.


Thank you, very, very much for taking the time to answer honestly and to not take offense.

My dad was a poor kid in a tiny Iowa farm town with an alcoholic father. The Church in a practical sense took him in & ensured he got an education and a purpose in life. He went as high as a layperson could within the hierarchy without actually joining the clergy. I get that to him, the Church is security and safety and even prestige and respect. But I can't reconcile that with him funding their efforts to make gay, lesbian and trans people legally "less than" so-called Good Christians.

Bit of an aside, but the "threat to humanity" bit began with Pope John Paul II back in the 1980's and has been reiterated by each Pope since, including both current Popes. Essentially, the Church's position is that anyone who disproves the assumption of a pure sex & gender binary must be doing so as a behavior choice and is a threat to the, "human ecology". The comparison of trans people to nukes as a threat to humanity was done by Pope Francis earlier this year. To me, that goes beyond spending money to affect politics, as all it takes is one slightly unstable but devout person to end the life of a "threat". The Church does not actually differentiate between the various letters of LGBT, btw.


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slave
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30 Sep 2015, 8:58 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Chakravartin wrote:
The question should be if secular and religious non-profit organizations should have to pay taxes, no they shouldn't.

If one has to pay taxes, then the other should too. If one doesn't, then the other should too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyy0ykPqZn0

http://www.tampabay.com/americas-worst-charities/

Thieves should be taxed.

Regards
DL


...AND imprisoned


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01 Oct 2015, 9:27 am

slave wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Chakravartin wrote:
The question should be if secular and religious non-profit organizations should have to pay taxes, no they shouldn't.

If one has to pay taxes, then the other should too. If one doesn't, then the other should too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyy0ykPqZn0

http://www.tampabay.com/americas-worst-charities/

Thieves should be taxed.

Regards
DL


...AND imprisoned


I prefer to get them to pay back instead of the taxpayer pay to jail them.

Regards
DL



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02 Oct 2015, 11:42 am

slave wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Chakravartin wrote:
The question should be if secular and religious non-profit organizations should have to pay taxes, no they shouldn't.

If one has to pay taxes, then the other should too. If one doesn't, then the other should too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fyy0ykPqZn0

http://www.tampabay.com/americas-worst-charities/

Thieves should be taxed.

Regards
DL


...AND imprisoned


As should the thousands of child molesters protected by the Vatican. Instead, we give them tax exclusions and exclusions from anti-discrimination laws.


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02 Oct 2015, 11:55 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
glebel wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
There are plenty of Baptists and Catholics out there to spread the manure. And I'm sorry to say, my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (which can aptly be called a "conservative mainline church) has jumped on the homophobic bandwagon - something that pisses me off to no end.


There's always ELCA.


The problem with that is, my home congregation has done so much for my family and me, I don't see myself bailing on people who might as well be my family. That, and the ELCA's leaders seems so intent on ecumenical unity that they apparently are willing to achieve this through compromising away Lutheran theology, and I like my Lutheran theology. Besides, Missouri Synod Lutherans in my home region of the Pacific Northwest are not nearly as conservative as they are in the Midwest, where the church leadership tends to be centered.


My mother always wanted to change to Missouri Synod.

Several years ago, there was an enormous vote at our local church to decide whether to stay in the ELCA or join the ALC. It was amazing that we had about 150 people vote when a typical Sunday now is about 20 to 30 people.

I've noticed that a number of locals now go to a different Lutheran church in a nearby town that is Missouri Synod. I've often wondered if that was because the ELCA won the vote.

I'm sure that that is the case. My church was an ELCA congregation, and when they got into politics, we were the first church to leave ( we joined the AALC). If the vote would have gone differently, I certainly would have gone back to the LCMS, even though I don't much care for the national leadership. This would have entailed a 120 mile round trip, so it would have been a pain. However, seeing as how I know people in that congregation through Via De Christo, I could be comfortable there.
However, I would once again be in the position of having to explain to those Germans that you can be French and still be a Lutheran. :lol:


May I ask, where in France did your people come from? I ask, because I had some people very far back in my line who came from Alsace, a German speaking area, but part of France, no less. Same applies to Lorraine. Or were they French speaking Lutherans?

Lutheranism never seemed to get a footing in France. I am a first generation Lutheran. I chose the Lutheran theology over all the rest because we actually read the Bible without interpreting it ( much).
My people were Huguenots from Alsace, Wallonia, Picardy, Normandy, Brittany, and Poitou.
My ancestors from Alsace, and most likely your ancestors from Alsace-Lorraine were members of the Reformed Church. Many Huguenots left the area and emigrated to the Rhineland when the French took it from the Holy Roman Empire during the Thirty Years War. Then, when the Imperial forces later took the Rhineland and Catholicized it, they fled to other German states, or, like my ancestors, they went to the Netherlands. I could easily see your ancestors moving to a Lutheran state and being forced to be Lutherans. Cuis regio, eius religio was the rule of thumb back in those days. Sounds like you might have an interesting story in your family history.
On a side note, I don't know if my Alsatian ancestors spoke German, but their first and last names were always French; one of ancestresses was born in Pfalz in the Rhineland and was named Marie Brulee.


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02 Oct 2015, 2:58 pm

glebel wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
glebel wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
There are plenty of Baptists and Catholics out there to spread the manure. And I'm sorry to say, my own Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (which can aptly be called a "conservative mainline church) has jumped on the homophobic bandwagon - something that pisses me off to no end.


There's always ELCA.


The problem with that is, my home congregation has done so much for my family and me, I don't see myself bailing on people who might as well be my family. That, and the ELCA's leaders seems so intent on ecumenical unity that they apparently are willing to achieve this through compromising away Lutheran theology, and I like my Lutheran theology. Besides, Missouri Synod Lutherans in my home region of the Pacific Northwest are not nearly as conservative as they are in the Midwest, where the church leadership tends to be centered.


My mother always wanted to change to Missouri Synod.

Several years ago, there was an enormous vote at our local church to decide whether to stay in the ELCA or join the ALC. It was amazing that we had about 150 people vote when a typical Sunday now is about 20 to 30 people.

I've noticed that a number of locals now go to a different Lutheran church in a nearby town that is Missouri Synod. I've often wondered if that was because the ELCA won the vote.

I'm sure that that is the case. My church was an ELCA congregation, and when they got into politics, we were the first church to leave ( we joined the AALC). If the vote would have gone differently, I certainly would have gone back to the LCMS, even though I don't much care for the national leadership. This would have entailed a 120 mile round trip, so it would have been a pain. However, seeing as how I know people in that congregation through Via De Christo, I could be comfortable there.
However, I would once again be in the position of having to explain to those Germans that you can be French and still be a Lutheran. :lol:


May I ask, where in France did your people come from? I ask, because I had some people very far back in my line who came from Alsace, a German speaking area, but part of France, no less. Same applies to Lorraine. Or were they French speaking Lutherans?

Lutheranism never seemed to get a footing in France. I am a first generation Lutheran. I chose the Lutheran theology over all the rest because we actually read the Bible without interpreting it ( much).
My people were Huguenots from Alsace, Wallonia, Picardy, Normandy, Brittany, and Poitou.
My ancestors from Alsace, and most likely your ancestors from Alsace-Lorraine were members of the Reformed Church. Many Huguenots left the area and emigrated to the Rhineland when the French took it from the Holy Roman Empire during the Thirty Years War. Then, when the Imperial forces later took the Rhineland and Catholicized it, they fled to other German states, or, like my ancestors, they went to the Netherlands. I could easily see your ancestors moving to a Lutheran state and being forced to be Lutherans. Cuis regio, eius religio was the rule of thumb back in those days. Sounds like you might have an interesting story in your family history.
On a side note, I don't know if my Alsatian ancestors spoke German, but their first and last names were always French; one of ancestresses was born in Pfalz in the Rhineland and was named Marie Brulee.


My dad's family were Lutherans from the very start of the Reformation. An ancestor in fact had corresponded with Luther. I don't know the name or original religion of the ancestor from Alsace prior to when she had married into the family, save that some members of the family had referred to her as "that French woman." :lol: While Alsace is part of France today, it has a primarily German speaking population, of either Protestant or Catholic theology. As my dad's people had taken part in the immigration from the Rhine-Nekar region of Germany (specifically the Kraichgau, which is today part of Baden-Wurttemberg) to the Black Sea area of Russia, it isn't a far leap to assume that this Alsatian ancestor had come from northern Alsace, from where many Russian Germans in the Black Sea region had also been originally from. What set the northern Alsatians apart from their southern neighbors was that while the latter spoke the Alemmanic dialect, those in the north spoke a high Franconian dialect, very similar to what was spoken by other German settlers in southern Russia, including those from the Kraichgau.


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02 Oct 2015, 6:04 pm

I think that in the US, churches should have to pay taxes. Generally, I wouldn't have a problem with churches not paying taxes, but in the past 70 or so years we have seen the rise of 'megachurches', and the like who use their religious affiliation to create tax shelters for themselves.

In a lot of European countries, 'National Churches', such as the Church of England, Church of Norway, etc. are Royal institutions, so they are taxpayer funded.


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03 Oct 2015, 3:37 am

Quote:
In a lot of European countries, 'National Churches', such as the Church of England, Church of Norway, etc. are Royal institutions, so they are taxpayer funded.


Can you explain what you mean?

The govenrnment has agreed to fund the repair of some Church of England buildings. This is because they are of considerable historic and architectural interest. They are national treasures which the Church can no longer afford.