Why do fundamentalist Abrahamic religions hate women?

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Peejay
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05 Sep 2015, 3:30 pm

Most religions treat women as property... chattels...like the livestock for breeding purposes only. Which is also why sex is not meant to be enjoyable in many religions.

Humans have love for each other as individuals, often in spite of religion



blauSamstag
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05 Sep 2015, 4:28 pm

Well, for christians, they have the bible. Specifically 1 Timothy 2 9-15:

Quote:
9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.


Now, many biblical scholars believe that Paul never actually wrote those in his 1st epistle to Timothy. That they were added later by some misogynist.

But that doesn't help fundamentalists, who believe that the entirety of whatever translation of the bible they prefer is exactly correct.



D0gbert
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05 Sep 2015, 10:09 pm

Ack. Should have used a better title.

I am interested with Abrahamic religions and their obsessions with "modesty".

I am well bloody aware of how other religions and society, in general, are male centric, even Confucianism (which isn't really a religion, but whatever).

It seems that "modesty" just prevents the women from doing anything.



blauSamstag
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05 Sep 2015, 11:02 pm

D0gbert wrote:
Ack. Should have used a better title.

I am interested with Abrahamic religions and their obsessions with "modesty".

I am well bloody aware of how other religions and society, in general, are male centric, even Confucianism (which isn't really a religion, but whatever).

It seems that "modesty" just prevents the women from doing anything.


Even among Mormons, there is a rising tide against the classical concepts of "modesty".

Mormon girls are tired of layered shirts and ankle-length dresses i guess. Can't say I blame 'em.

The angle they are taking is basically "It's YOUR responsibility to control YOUR impure thoughts, and raise YOUR SONS to be respectful of women".



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06 Sep 2015, 12:23 am

Unfortunately, that still leaves a lot of room for interpretation about what "impure" thoughts are and what it means to respect women. The latter is traditionally interpreted the way you normally talk about respecting someone else's property, not another free human being. The most prominent consequence is that this kind of "respect" has nothing to do with the woman's will.


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06 Sep 2015, 12:34 am

Spiderpig wrote:
Unfortunately, that still leaves a lot of room for interpretation about what "impure" thoughts are and what it means to respect women. The latter is traditionally interpreted the way you normally talk about respecting someone else's property, not another free human being. The most prominent consequence is that this kind of "respect" has nothing to do with the woman's will.


I actually think it's sort of illogical to make women cover everything up.

I'm not saying that nothing should be left to the imagination, but you get used to seeing a little shoulder, side-boob, cleavage, etc. It stops being such a distraction after a while.

My very mormon nieces, for example, aren't arguing that they want to walk around with their hooha hanging out. They just want to wear what they like, what is comfortable, and what they feel pretty in, without someone suggesting that it's their responsibility to spare men the responsibility to behave like civilized human beings.

And I support 'em in that.

And I am close enough to these girls that there's a young man about 20 minutes away from me whom i need to introduce myself to, and explain to him that my niece means a lot to me, and I own both a shovel and a very capable off-road vehicle, and I know some quiet spots in the woods where nobody will think to look for their body. In case i should hear of them disrespecting my niece in a serious way.



mojorising
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06 Sep 2015, 11:15 am

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Re: Why do fundamentalist Abrahamic religions hate women?


It is not a religious thing. It is just human nature. Women are a constrained resource for reproduction (since pregnancy lasts 9 months) and reproduction is the biggest game in town for sexually reproducing lifeforms. Men have always attempted to control and jealously defend this resource which results in them treating women like property.

Now that we are more socially sophisticated this primitive view of women has become outdated but it was not invented by religion. Religion is not intelligent enough to invent things, it just usurps things that already exist wherever it springs up.



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06 Sep 2015, 12:34 pm

Moral of the story: you don’t need to be smart enough to make what you are strong enough to take by force.


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06 Sep 2015, 12:41 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
Moral of the story: you don’t need to be smart enough to make what you are strong enough to take by force.

Yep, that's how the most powerful positions in the world are determined. I remember the wrestling match between Romney and Obama, that was a great physical confrontation. And when I go to the store I don't do the smart thing and pay, I just pop the cashier in the face and walk out with what I'm strong enough to take. Awesome philosophy, make sure you're using it all the time, every place you go. Remember, if you're playing by the rules you're just being weak.



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06 Sep 2015, 1:08 pm

I’m afraid you’ve got it backwards: first you have to be powerful, and then you can bully others. Breaking rules when you can’t afford it is only going to get your bones broken, at best.


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Peejay
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06 Sep 2015, 1:14 pm

mojorising wrote:
Quote:
Re: Why do fundamentalist Abrahamic religions hate women?


It is not a religious thing. It is just human nature. Women are a constrained resource for reproduction (since pregnancy lasts 9 months) and reproduction is the biggest game in town for sexually reproducing lifeforms. Men have always attempted to control and jealously defend this resource which results in them treating women like property.

Now that we are more socially sophisticated this primitive view of women has become outdated but it was not invented by religion. Religion is not intelligent enough to invent things, it just usurps things that already exist wherever it springs up.


I disagree.
The earliest religions apparently were often animal or nature worshipping as well as mother Goddess worshiping. Male domination of religions came about later Early Bronze age?? first Cities??? (not sure exactly). see quote below.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_theory1.htm quote.....
The first organized religions appear to have been based on fertility. They were focused on the worship of the great Earth Goddess. Religion evolved to include male Gods who were gradually given increased importance by the priests. This development may have been caused by developing knowledge of the male's involvement in the process of reproduction.

I have always had this theory that males deep down know that in many ways women are the superior gender and are jealous of womens observable ability (power) to grow life inside them; and that their need for dominance is an attempt to feel less insecure.

Thats why some Abrahamic religions put women in bags. and others genitally mutilate them the men pretend to be tough but are deep down threatened by women. Women have the real power that is why men have spent millenia constructing society and their religions to subjugate them



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06 Sep 2015, 1:19 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
I’m afraid you’ve got it backwards: first you have to be powerful, and then you can bully others. Breaking rules when you can’t afford it is only going to get your bones broken, at best.

Well that makes your point moot then, no one is more powerful than society. Even some Roman emperors had to learn that the hard way. That being said, don't conflate strength with power, they're two different things. Strength is an overrated meme pumped out in culture to entice animal instinct. Power is the ability to actually do things. Strength has virtually no relevance in the world of today. Take all the infrastructure humanity has created, the hoover dam, the pyramids, the eiffel tower, etc. Sure they had big brawny dudes working on the projects, but there would have been nothing without someone with the smarts to design those things. Let's say a big strong guy like the Rock has a dispute with nerdy little Bill Gates, sure the Rock could hit him, but Bill Gates will leverage all his power society to sue the Rock into submission. Let's say me and you get into a fight and you're much bigger than me, well, it's the modern world, I carry a gun and I wouldn't be shy using it. Power in the animal world was strength, power in a civilized world is smarts.



Peejay
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06 Sep 2015, 1:40 pm

Power Vs strength... that a good point.



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06 Sep 2015, 2:55 pm

Its because God is a misogynist! The religions are man made concepts to keep women down and that women are supposed to be submissive to men and that men must dominate women and make them go into the kitchen and popping out babies!


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06 Sep 2015, 3:13 pm

Most women are well able to make babies of their own accord, especially thousands of years ago, with no effective contraceptives or other modern technology. When they find a man they like, and they’re not committed to a relationship with someone else, and they don’t live in a society that slut-shames them, they merrily have sex with him and nine months later have a baby. And they tend to love the baby and try to raise it as best as they can.

The domination part is more about making sure the baby is yours. Historically, and even today in many parts of the world, often without caring much whether the woman really likes being in a relationship with you for the rest of her life or just settles for it because she doesn’t have much of a chance to survive or be respected otherwise.

Violent behaviors like these are just as natural as sex and reproduction themselves whenever they’re favored by natural selection. The first thing a male lion does when he takes over a defeated rival’s pride is to kill all the cubs, much to the females’ chagrin, so they stop spending time and precious resources caring for them, and instead become receptive to him and make new cubs bearing his genes.


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06 Sep 2015, 7:06 pm

This is a little off topic, but it is about women regarding the right wing of the Republican party. And it's all about religion and denying health care for women.

http://www.salon.com/2015/09/06/14065553_partner/