ISIS detonates twin bombs in Beirut, carnage everywhere.

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HisMom
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14 Nov 2015, 5:27 pm

MonsterCrack wrote:
HisMom wrote:
MonsterCrack wrote:
yes, in Syria, too, although I'm not sure if putting the syrians in turkey in refugee camps will be of much help..... the syrian men will turn to crime for a living and the syrian women to prostitution if they continue to deny them a chance at work....


Then, the Turkish troops can escort them back into Syria, and they can commit crime and prostitution *in* Syria.

Turkey (or any other country) does not owe them a "living".

Go back where you came from, oust Assad (if that is what it takes to make Syria habitable again), and do whatever the heck you want to do in your OWN country.

Criminals and prostitutes need not apply, thank you very much. We have our own trouble makers to deal with, you know.
if you really are a mother like your profile name suggests, then you seriously need to both learn to have a heart and learn international law before you make judgements like that...


Learn to have a heart for what ? For saying that I don't want criminals and prostitutes entering my children's country ? For saying that immigrants need to follow the host country's rules and laws ? What exactly do I need to have a heart for ?

Learn international law ? LOL. Yeah, well, we all know how current international law has worked for the hosts - just look at Paris ! Refugees are granted asylum, not guaranteed JOBS or sources of living. Leading a life of crime or becoming a prostitute or turning into hardcore extremists -- in attempts to bite the hand that fed you -- is not the way to deal with what you believe are the "unfair policies" of the host.

They took you in, what else do you want ? A welfare check in the mail every month and paid housing ? Or else you'll turn to crime and prostitution ?


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Last edited by HisMom on 14 Nov 2015, 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MonsterCrack
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14 Nov 2015, 5:30 pm

HisMom wrote:
MonsterCrack wrote:
HisMom wrote:
MonsterCrack wrote:
yes, in Syria, too, although I'm not sure if putting the syrians in turkey in refugee camps will be of much help..... the syrian men will turn to crime for a living and the syrian women to prostitution if they continue to deny them a chance at work....


Then, the Turkish troops can escort them back into Syria, and they can commit crime and prostitution *in* Syria.

Turkey (or any other country) does not owe them a "living".

Go back where you came from, oust Assad (if that is what it takes to make Syria habitable again), and do whatever the heck you want to do in your OWN country.

Criminals and prostitutes need not apply, thank you very much. We have our own trouble makers to deal with, you know.
if you really are a mother like your profile name suggests, then you seriously need to both learn to have a heart and learn international law before you make judgements like that...


Learn to have a heart for what ? For saying that I don't want criminals and prostitutes entering my children's country ? For saying that immigrants need to follow the host country's rules and laws ? What exactly do I need to have a heart for ?

Learn international law ? LOL. Yeah, well, we all know how current international law has worked for the hosts - just look at Paris ! Refugees are granted asylum, not guaranteed JOBS or sources of living. Turning into hardcore extremists and biting the hand that fed you is not the way to deal with what you believe are the "unfair policies" of the host. They took you in, what else do you want ? A welfare check in the mail every month and paid housing ?
I never said to allow criminals and prostitutes into your country, I said if the Turks don't help the syrian refugees to integrate, they will RESORT to crime and prostitution..... learn to listen, hismom



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14 Nov 2015, 5:31 pm

HisMom wrote:
MonsterCrack wrote:
HisMom wrote:
MonsterCrack wrote:
yes, in Syria, too, although I'm not sure if putting the syrians in turkey in refugee camps will be of much help..... the syrian men will turn to crime for a living and the syrian women to prostitution if they continue to deny them a chance at work....


Then, the Turkish troops can escort them back into Syria, and they can commit crime and prostitution *in* Syria.

Turkey (or any other country) does not owe them a "living".

Go back where you came from, oust Assad (if that is what it takes to make Syria habitable again), and do whatever the heck you want to do in your OWN country.

Criminals and prostitutes need not apply, thank you very much. We have our own trouble makers to deal with, you know.
if you really are a mother like your profile name suggests, then you seriously need to both learn to have a heart and learn international law before you make judgements like that...


Learn to have a heart for what ? For saying that I don't want criminals and prostitutes entering my children's country ? For saying that immigrants need to follow the host country's rules and laws ? What exactly do I need to have a heart for ?

Learn international law ? LOL. Yeah, well, we all know how current international law has worked for the hosts - just look at Paris ! Refugees are granted asylum, not guaranteed JOBS or sources of living. Leading a life of crime or becoming a prostitute or turning into hardcore extremists -- in attempts to bite the hand that fed you -- is not the way to deal with what you believe are the "unfair policies" of the host.

They took you in, what else do you want ? A welfare check in the mail every month and paid housing ? Or else you'll turn to crime and prostitution ?
also, what i mean was you need to stop saying we should deny refugees into our countries just because they are Muslim... it is against international law...



HisMom
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14 Nov 2015, 5:33 pm

MonsterCrack wrote:
I never said to allow criminals and prostitutes into your country, I said if the Turks don't help the syrian refugees to integrate, they will RESORT to crime and prostitution..... learn to listen, hismom


And I said that if they turned to crime, the Turkish troops can lead them back into Syria, for them to engage in prostitution and crime in their OWN country. What part of that offended you so ?

And, pray, how should the Turks help the Syrians integrate ?

You think host countries should tolerate immigrant crime, because it's the host's fault that the refugees can't find jobs ? DUH.

MonsterCrack wrote:
also, what i mean was you need to stop saying we should deny refugees into our countries just because they are Muslim... it is against international law...


Oh, no, you are welcome into our lands... just follow local laws, be productive citizens, and don't indulge in criminal enterprises or mischief. If you can't be arsed to follow the rules and live in Rome like all the the other Romans do, then go back to where life is all pink roses and purple unicorns, and don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.


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That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.
At least I'm sure it may be so in "Denmark".

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shlaifu
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14 Nov 2015, 6:10 pm

Asylum seekers may be granted asylum, which also, in germany wher I live, implies no work permit. They get refugee statis, not legal immigrant status.
If we take them in and don't give them housing and food, we force them to be homeless and starving ->they turn towards crime.
If we gave them work permits, they'd either "take our jobs", or would be unemployed (and probably still wouldn't speak the language, keeping them out of employment for sure)
And if they were unemployed, they'd be elligible for minimum housing benefits and allowance.

Becoming a refugee in europe is choosing a dangerous travel followed by the catch22 clusterfuck that is european refugee laws over whatever fate awaits you in your home coutry.
And the french and the british have so many angry muslims in their countries because, over the cause of history, they f****d muslim countries over big time. It was called colonialism.

" they should be criminals in their home countries" is not an adequate response.


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14 Nov 2015, 7:32 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Asylum seekers may be granted asylum, which also, in germany wher I live, implies no work permit. They get refugee statis, not legal immigrant status.
If we take them in and don't give them housing and food, we force them to be homeless and starving ->they turn towards crime.
If we gave them work permits, they'd either "take our jobs", or would be unemployed (and probably still wouldn't speak the language, keeping them out of employment for sure)
And if they were unemployed, they'd be elligible for minimum housing benefits and allowance.

Becoming a refugee in europe is choosing a dangerous travel followed by the catch22 clusterfuck that is european refugee laws over whatever fate awaits you in your home coutry.
And the french and the british have so many angry muslims in their countries because, over the cause of history, they f****d muslim countries over big time. It was called colonialism.

" they should be criminals in their home countries" is not an adequate response.
hmmp, hmmp, agreed...



HisMom
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14 Nov 2015, 8:37 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Asylum seekers may be granted asylum, which also, in germany wher I live, implies no work permit. They get refugee statis, not legal immigrant status.
If we take them in and don't give them housing and food, we force them to be homeless and starving ->they turn towards crime.
If we gave them work permits, they'd either "take our jobs", or would be unemployed (and probably still wouldn't speak the language, keeping them out of employment for sure)
And if they were unemployed, they'd be elligible for minimum housing benefits and allowance.


Nice try, but no dice.

Asylum and Refugee Policy in Germany

"If the asylum application is accepted, persons granted asylum status and those granted refugee status receive a temporary residence permit and are given the same status as Germans within the social insurance system. They are entitled to social welfare, child benefits, child-raising benefits, integration allowances and language courses as well as other forms of integration assistance."


Apparently, it must be really bad that the Germans want you to take language courses and integrate into society. HOW DARE THEY ?

Secondly, if seeking asylum was so bad, then (a) fix the problems in your home country so that you don't have to seek asylum elsewhere or (b) take whatever skills you have and apply for legal, work-based immigration as opposed to asylum. Of course, you'd then have to actually WORK for a living, and won't be eligible for free handouts, but it's a lot better than making cut-throat gestures or showing up with T-shirts saying, "Fear for your wives" -- actions that don't exactly endear you to the local population.

shlaifu wrote:
Becoming a refugee in europe is choosing a dangerous travel followed by the catch22 clusterfuck that is european refugee laws over whatever fate awaits you in your home coutry.


Yeah, apparently the benefits of child raising allowance, "INTEGRATION allowance", paid language classes, etc are equal to being "cluster f****d". So why choose to emigrate to Europe in the first place ? Stay where you are and deal with whatever fate awaits you in your OWN country.

shlaifu wrote:
And the french and the british have so many angry muslims in their countries because, over the cause of history, they f****d muslim countries over big time. It was called colonialism.


Strawman alert ! A lot of countries - notably India and China - were also former colonies. Gee, I wonder why Indians and Chinese - for the most part - aren't disgruntled criminals in their former colonizer's country ?

shlaifu wrote:
"they should be criminals in their home countries" is not an adequate response.


What would be an adequate response ? Emigrate and become a criminal in another country ?


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O villain, villain, smiling, damnèd villain!
My tables—meet it is I set it down
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.
At least I'm sure it may be so in "Denmark".

-- Hamlet, 1.5.113-116


shlaifu
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15 Nov 2015, 6:23 am

Does it say anything about work permits?
So what you pointed out was that germany provides housing, money for food and tries to teach people the language so they are not completely screwed. Yes.
If we didn't we'd have ten thousands of people roaming the streets, only capable of talking to each other, looking for food.
But they're refugees, not immigrants.

Listen, I'm not a hippie.
I'm aware that these people are not "welcome", - we somewhat reluctantly allow them to stay with us, because we can't easily justify sendong someone back who has just travelled here on foot. Refugees aren't coming to this country to have a better life, they're coming here to have any life at all.

But Europe has defense systems, deliberately making it hard to get to Europe and making it somewhat unpleasant to be here. But it be cutting our own flesh, if we didn't do any integration. We'd have a few thousand upset muslims on our country. We'd like to avoid that, but that doesn't mean we want to create a pathway to immigration. Hence the catch22 situation. We might want to reconsider either proper immigration, or not taking in refugees at all. Both seem wrong, so we're doing neither, and that's not actually good for anyone, except it pleases the liberals in europe somewhat, as much as it somewhat pleases the rights.

About other former colonies: well, it's just dumb luck that some are doing better, and some have more aggressive tendencies.
That part of the muslim world literally sits on the oil that is figuratively poured into the fire, that there's century old conflicts still lingering doesn't help.

India is full of religious tension, and mind you, pakistan and bangladesh (former east-pakistan) are not naturally grown countries. Read up on how that went down, and still is going down.
India also had a unifying struggle against the British, that went by remarkably violence-free. That's a historic oddity, and an inspiring one, but far from the "norm".
Other underdeveloped countries are now looking for their unifying struggle, - the " muslim world" is far from being one homogeneic entity, and neither are "the western countries", whom some forces try to stylize into the common enemy.


I don't have an adequate response, except I'd maybe try allowing people to work, and helping them integrate.
That step needs a lot of optimizing, and we're not actually trying to do that, because really, we don't want them here.
And they don't WANT to be here either. We have to figure out how to deal with that.


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shlaifu
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15 Nov 2015, 6:41 am

for crying out loud, I don't feel happily integrated in to this society, and all that traumatized me is Asperger's, not the choice between getting my head cut off or fleeing to a country that is entirely alien and somewhat hostile.

applying for immigration, to work for a living takes a lot of time and money. if ISIS lunatics were 30km from my town, I'd probaly not think too much about taking a six month language course in my home country to prepare.
Oh, and 'fixing things in my home country' is not always an option.
we can't fix our home countries, either, we're just lucky that the factions in our countries don't resort to publicly killing each other on sight.
Oh wait. how's that racism thing been going for the US, for example.
"Fix your own country" is a remakr that blatantly ignores just how wrecked these places are, that people decide to run, not walk away from.


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16 Nov 2015, 11:07 am

Why is ISIS even allowed to exist?


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16 Nov 2015, 11:20 am

HisMom wrote:
MonsterCrack wrote:
HisMom wrote:
MonsterCrack wrote:
yes, in Syria, too, although I'm not sure if putting the syrians in turkey in refugee camps will be of much help..... the syrian men will turn to crime for a living and the syrian women to prostitution if they continue to deny them a chance at work....


Then, the Turkish troops can escort them back into Syria, and they can commit crime and prostitution *in* Syria.

Turkey (or any other country) does not owe them a "living".

Go back where you came from, oust Assad (if that is what it takes to make Syria habitable again), and do whatever the heck you want to do in your OWN country.

Criminals and prostitutes need not apply, thank you very much. We have our own trouble makers to deal with, you know.
if you really are a mother like your profile name suggests, then you seriously need to both learn to have a heart and learn international law before you make judgements like that...


Learn to have a heart for what ? For saying that I don't want criminals and prostitutes entering my children's country ? For saying that immigrants need to follow the host country's rules and laws ? What exactly do I need to have a heart for ?

Learn international law ? LOL. Yeah, well, we all know how current international law has worked for the hosts - just look at Paris ! Refugees are granted asylum, not guaranteed JOBS or sources of living. Leading a life of crime or becoming a prostitute or turning into hardcore extremists -- in attempts to bite the hand that fed you -- is not the way to deal with what you believe are the "unfair policies" of the host.

They took you in, what else do you want ? A welfare check in the mail every month and paid housing ? Or else you'll turn to crime and prostitution ?


You talk as if every refugee is an angry criminal, I'd agree that more precaution needs to be taken as to how they let people in or whatever.....also if you think women who resort to prostitution are doing it to bite the hand that feeds them, you're kind of ignorant on the issue. That is what a desperate women might do for food and shelter if she has no other means.

And would you rather they get work oppurtunities or that welfare check?


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16 Nov 2015, 5:18 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
You talk as if every refugee is an angry criminal, I'd agree that more precaution needs to be taken as to how they let people in or whatever.....also if you think women who resort to prostitution are doing it to bite the hand that feeds them, you're kind of ignorant on the issue. That is what a desperate women might do for food and shelter if she has no other means.

And would you rather they get work oppurtunities or that welfare check?
I agree...



HisMom
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16 Nov 2015, 5:57 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

You talk as if every refugee is an angry criminal, I'd agree that more precaution needs to be taken as to how they let people in or whatever.....also if you think women who resort to prostitution are doing it to bite the hand that feeds them, you're kind of ignorant on the issue. That is what a desperate women might do for food and shelter if she has no other means.


When you indulge in illegal activities or criminal enterprises, then you deserve to face the consequences. Being "desperate" is not an excuse for breaking the law.

And don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say that every refugee is an angry criminal. I was responding to the comment that the host country had better provide refugees with jobs, or face the consequences when the refugees get angry and turn to a life of crime or prostitution. THAT sense of entitlement is what I was specifically objecting to.

Many people who are born in a country, grow up there, speak the language, get an education, and live as part of the voting mainstream society still struggle to get and keep a job. So, when someone comes in as a refugee, does not speak the language, wants to continue following their "culture" and tradition, does not work to integrate, BUT DEMANDS to be handed a job / free housing / welfare checks in the mail, yeah, that's a problem.

And if you are such a bleeding heart, write to your local congressman or congresswoman and demand that prostitution be de-criminalized, instead of referring to strangers on a forum as "ignorant". That is a better use of your time and a good outlet for your sentiments in the matter.

NOTE : I do have an issue with refugees not being issued a work permit. That sounds rather dumb to me, and is more than just a tad unfair. No one can guarantee anyone a JOB, but heck, do give them a work permit, Europe, so they can work and feed themselves.


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O villain, villain, smiling, damnèd villain!
My tables—meet it is I set it down
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.
At least I'm sure it may be so in "Denmark".

-- Hamlet, 1.5.113-116


shlaifu
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16 Nov 2015, 6:48 pm

Well, that's sort of the issue here. The catch22 I was speaking about where we don't actually want them to set up their lives and culture here either, and we don't want them to compete with our native workforce. We keep them as refugees, not as legal immigrants.
They can however get immigrant status and work permits after they stayed here for, I think, 3 years, but obviously international conflicts often take a bit longer.
So once they have benn here long enough to get somewhat integrated, maybe find a job and have children go to german schools, we try to send them home, once their home country is habitable again, which tends to destroy their lives here once again.

It's a really bad compromise, but if we had the thing solved, there obviously wouldn't be a refugee crisis.

We're trying to find a way between hippie sympathy, rationality/utilitarism and rightwing arseholerey, and we're ending up with a chunky mixture of it all.


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16 Nov 2015, 6:50 pm

The G20 Summit just came up with a plan for Syria yesterday.... there will hopefully be a transition government within 6 months, rebel leaders and Assad loyalist leaders will meet on January, and there will be U.N. supervised elections in 18 months.... I hope this goes well.