ISIS detonates twin bombs in Beirut, carnage everywhere.

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shlaifu
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16 Nov 2015, 6:58 pm

Just out of curiosity: is anyone familiar with the ISIS/ Al Qaeda strategy handbook 'management of savagery' or, sometimes translated 'management of chaos'?

It explains how one can use international, media attention grabbing attacks to force the western country into a guerilla war, in which the western troops will be worn down and disillusioned, which inturn leads local populations to loose faith in the west and turn towards the 'caliphate'.
And then repeat.
Sound familiar?


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Adamantium
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17 Nov 2015, 1:29 pm

HisMom wrote:
Being "desperate" is not an excuse for breaking the law.


I think it is.

If you believe that law is some sort of magical system laid down by the command of a deity or deities, then it's whatever they say it is. In one such system, christianity, being desperate is specifically mentioned by the deity as a legitimate excuse for breaking the law as in "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

But if you believe that the law is system of social conventions and codes that define the limits of acceptable behavior by a group, then there is no reason that being desperate should not be seen as an excuse for breaking the law. Judges and juried often take this kind of factor into account when making their decisions.

I'm pretty sure that love of the law is not an excuse for being inhumane to other human beings.



HisMom
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17 Nov 2015, 1:50 pm

Adamantium wrote:

I'm pretty sure that love of the law is not an excuse for being inhumane to other human beings.


If you think that following the laws, and / or expecting your fellow citizens to follow the law, is being "inhumane", then I think we should just dismantle our entire legal system, and live by the laws of nature (aka the laws of the jungle where almost anything --- including murder --- is passe and can be justified as being "an act of desperation").


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Adamantium
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17 Nov 2015, 2:38 pm

HisMom wrote:
Adamantium wrote:

I'm pretty sure that love of the law is not an excuse for being inhumane to other human beings.


If you think that following the laws, and / or expecting your fellow citizens to follow the law, is being "inhumane", then I think we should just dismantle our entire legal system, and live by the laws of nature (aka the laws of the jungle where almost anything --- including murder --- is passe and can be justified as being "an act of desperation").


Oversimplification is not your friend in matters like these. I do not contend that following the law is inhumane, but rather note that the application of the law is not simple.

The law has a rich tradition around the concept of mitigating circumstances. To advocate ignoring that part of the law is inhumane. The law puts sentencing in the hands of judges and juries rather than merely having a court clerk look up the punishment listed for the crime in a table precisely because people recognize that these matters are not simple, that there are mitigating circumstances and that there needs to be room for humanity in the working of the law.

What I find inhumane is treating individual people badly because of one's prejudice against some group one perceives them as belonging to. What I find inhumane is holding one person accountable for the wrongdoing of another merely because they share a regional origin, ethnicity, race, gender or common membership in some other broad group.



HisMom
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17 Nov 2015, 2:46 pm

Adamantium wrote:
HisMom wrote:
Adamantium wrote:

I'm pretty sure that love of the law is not an excuse for being inhumane to other human beings.


If you think that following the laws, and / or expecting your fellow citizens to follow the law, is being "inhumane", then I think we should just dismantle our entire legal system, and live by the laws of nature (aka the laws of the jungle where almost anything --- including murder --- is passe and can be justified as being "an act of desperation").


Oversimplification is not your friend in matters like these. I do not contend that following the law is inhumane, but rather note that the application of the law is not simple.

The law has a rich tradition around the concept of mitigating circumstances. To advocate ignoring that part of the law is inhumane. The law puts sentencing in the hands of judges and juries rather than merely having a court clerk look up the punishment listed for the crime in a table precisely because people recognize that these matters are not simple, that there are mitigating circumstances and that there needs to be room for humanity in the working of the law.

What I find inhumane is treating individual people badly because of one's prejudice against some group one perceives them as belonging to. What I find inhumane is holding one person accountable for the wrongdoing of another merely because they share a regional origin, ethnicity, race, gender or common membership in some other broad group.


Ironically, right after 9/11, I was subject to racism because I "looked like I'd ridden in on a camel" (the words of a Latina classmate of mine - who, strangely enough, was later found to be an ILLEGAL immigrant into America, but had the nerve to pass such a racist comment about me).

I also had a cart smash into me at Walmart, because I looked like a "camel-jockey".

I finally had the school's DIVERSITY OFFICER tell me I was over-reacting to the Latina's comment about her "camel riding" suspicions of me, and her comment that Indians are "dishonest" (gee, apparently illegal border crossings are very "honest"). BTW, the "Latina" (who looked very white) was also given the wink-wink-nod-nod by our then accounting professor (a piece of racist garbage) as the comments were made IN class and within hearing of the "professor" (POS).

A doctor's office would not see me and would not tell me why. Gee, maybe they could spot the camel that I had tethered out in the parking lot and suspected that I hid a Kalashnikov in my handbag ?

So, yeah, you want to tell me about how it's bad to blame individuals for the collective actions of a larger group, sure. But just be aware that you're preaching to the choir. However, that does not mean that I could have gotten my knickers in a knot, accused my hosts of racism and negativity, and indulged in criminal enterprises with blatant disregard for the law, because it is "revenge" for them not accepting me or treating me like a sub-human POS.

You have arse01les everywhere. The important thing is not to let them drive you into doing things (aka leading a life of crime) that will eventually hurt only you and / or your family.


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17 Nov 2015, 3:35 pm

xenocity wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/dozens-may-be-dead-in-twin-suicide-bombings-in-lebanese-capital/2015/11/12/d897528c-8968-11e5-bd91-d385b244482f_story.html


Scores are dead today in Beirut Lebanon after ISIS detonated twin car bombs in the city.
It is believed to be payback for Lebanon's support for the collation against ISIS and supporting the U.S.
ISIS claims this is the opening shot against Lebanon with more to come if they continue to support the U.S.

ISIS is also now targeting Hezbollah as well.


>ISIS is also now targeting Hezbollah as well.

Of course they are. ISIS works for Israel without even realizing it.



HisMom
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17 Nov 2015, 4:21 pm

xile123 wrote:
xenocity wrote:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/dozens-may-be-dead-in-twin-suicide-bombings-in-lebanese-capital/2015/11/12/d897528c-8968-11e5-bd91-d385b244482f_story.html


Scores are dead today in Beirut Lebanon after ISIS detonated twin car bombs in the city.
It is believed to be payback for Lebanon's support for the collation against ISIS and supporting the U.S.
ISIS claims this is the opening shot against Lebanon with more to come if they continue to support the U.S.

ISIS is also now targeting Hezbollah as well.


>ISIS is also now targeting Hezbollah as well.

Of course they are. ISIS works for Israel without even realizing it.


The Hezbollah are Shiite Muslims. ISIS is almost entirely Sunni. The Sunni - Shia conflicts dates back to the time of the Prophet's grandchildren. ISIS and Hezbollah would have wanted to cut each others' throats even without those meddlesome Jews in the picture.


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At least I'm sure it may be so in "Denmark".

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Adamantium
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17 Nov 2015, 6:21 pm

HisMom wrote:
So, yeah, you want to tell me about how it's bad to blame individuals for the collective actions of a larger group, sure. But just be aware that you're preaching to the choir. However, that does not mean that I could have gotten my knickers in a knot, accused my hosts of racism and negativity, and indulged in criminal enterprises with blatant disregard for the law, because it is "revenge" for them not accepting me or treating me like a sub-human POS.

You have arse01les everywhere. The important thing is not to let them drive you into doing things (aka leading a life of crime) that will eventually hurt only you and / or your family.


I hear you, but I think you are taking a rhetorical position that is a best tangential to the point you were refuting.

The thing is: there are good reasons why people are seeking refuge from a horrible war.

Complaints that not all the refugees are perfect or that some of them are men who should be fighting on some imaginary "good" side back home don't make it OK to ignore the humanitarian crisis created by these conflicts or the desperate need of the refugees.

Not helping the immigrants because of these spurious concerns is not only bad for them, it helps the plans of the Islamic State/Daesh. Giving in to xenophobic, anti-immigrant sentiment is playing into the hands of the terrorists who want to further isolate disaffected Muslim youth in targeted counties and ripen them for radicalization and recruitment.

xile123 wrote:
ISIS works for Israel without even realizing it.

ISIS hates Shias because they are rampant takfiris and extreme salafists and therefore hate Shiites and consider it a moral obligation to kill them.

It is quite possible to be wicked without working for Israel, despite what you may have heard.



HisMom
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17 Nov 2015, 7:40 pm

Adamantium wrote:

Complaints that not all the refugees are perfect or that some of them are men who should be fighting on some imaginary "good" side back home don't make it OK to ignore the humanitarian crisis created by these conflicts or the desperate need of the refugees.

Not helping the immigrants because of these spurious concerns is not only bad for them, it helps the plans of the Islamic State/Daesh. Giving in to xenophobic, anti-immigrant sentiment is playing into the hands of the terrorists who want to further isolate disaffected Muslim youth in targeted counties and ripen them for radicalization and recruitment.


I am not indifferent to the suffering of the civilians caught in these large scale conflicts. I do agree that other nations should help those who seek refuge / asylum -- as I have said before, NO people should be stateless.

Where I differ from you is that I have expectations of the people I help. If I give you refuge / asylum, then the LEAST I expect from you and yours is that you will be productive and positive contributors to (our) society. That you will work hard, learn the lingua franca of your new country and try to assimilate into mainstream society to the best of your abilities. That you will not indulge in criminal enterprises or act with wilful disregard to the law. That you will keep the peace and be model guests who will eventually become model residents.

Having these expectations does not mean that I am inhumane. I have these expectations because I want my children to continue remaining safe, and continuing to enjoy the same peaceful quality of life that they had before you got here. If / when immigrants become nuisances as opposed to productive citizens, then they need to be sent back wherever they came from. My children and the quality of their lives come first. Charity begins at home and I refuse to tolerate anything or anyone (including immigrants) that may threaten or compromise my children's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


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That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.
At least I'm sure it may be so in "Denmark".

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The_Face_of_Boo
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18 Nov 2015, 7:28 am

Half of the public opinion here were opposed to Hezbollah's intervention into Syria, Assad is hated by many factions either (What Assad killed of certain Lebanese factions is still far more than what ISIS killed of them), another reason many people think "it's not our war, it's Assad's problem"; another reason why many opposed is the fear that ISIS would retaliate against all Lebanese civilians:
It would have been more effective if all Hezbollah forces are now backing up the national army in protecting the borders from ISIS infiltrators instead of sinking in the cesspool of the Syrian war, significantly draining its manpower and arms while ISIS isn't getting much weaker.

But as always, they follow Iran's agenda, Hezbollah's strategic decision of war wasn't democratic per se.

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https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/reportsfeat ... t-in-syria



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18 Nov 2015, 7:49 am

and this another interesting poll in Jordan:

Quote:
Recent polling results suggest that King Abdullah's low-profile policy toward Syria is well calculated to keep him out of trouble.


http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/poli ... to-stay-ou

Quote:
Assad, Russia, Hezbollah All Viewed Very Negatively, Along with ISIS

Jordanians see no "good guys" in Syria today: the Syrian regime, its outside supporters, and its main internal enemy all receive highly unfavorable ratings. Asked their view of each player "considering their recent policies," Jordanians rated Syria's government at 91 percent "fairly negative" or "very negative." The Syrian government's allies -- Russia and Hezbollah -- also get very bad reviews: the two are tied, each receiving an 86 percent negative rating. But Jordanians view these Syrian players' common enemy, ISIS, even more poorly: the group is rated 89 percent "very negative," with an additional 3 percent "fairly negative" score.

Iran Also Considered a Major Problem

Similarly, when asked about Iran's recent policies, Jordanians overwhelmingly characterize them very negatively (50 percent) or fairly negatively (43 percent). The recent P 5+1 nuclear deal with Iran is also seen as problematic: just one-third of those polled classified the agreement as a good deal, compared with the plurality (45 percent), who call it bad; one-fifth say they don't know enough to judge.

Looking ahead, only 13 percent of Jordanians expect Arab-Iranian relations to improve; a narrow majority (53 percent) say those relations will get worse, while 29 percent predict they will remain about the same. More unexpectedly, given a list of six regional conflicts including Syria, Yemen, Israel-Palestine, and ISIS, a plurality of Jordanians say top priority should be either "the conflict between Iran and Arab countries" (15 percent) or "the conflict between sects or movements of Islam" (13 percent).


Jordanians dislike all major fighting sides in Syria and want to stay out.



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18 Nov 2015, 8:47 am

shlaifu wrote:
Just out of curiosity: is anyone familiar with the ISIS/ Al Qaeda strategy handbook 'management of savagery' or, sometimes translated 'management of chaos'?

It explains how one can use international, media attention grabbing attacks to force the western country into a guerilla war, in which the western troops will be worn down and disillusioned, which inturn leads local populations to loose faith in the west and turn towards the 'caliphate'.
And then repeat.
Sound familiar?


Never heard of that book. But yeah-that exactly what Osama spoke of for years before finnally getting his wish with 9-11:"getting the US bogged down in a guerrilla war in some Islamic country".

Someone above mentioned that this attack will cause Muslims in western countries to suffer. That is probably also part of the deliberate strategy. Get the host population to beat up on the muslim minority- which in turn will drive the muslim minority into the arms of jihadists.

But what choice is there?

You cant do nothing. You have to respond with international military action. The only thing worse than playing into their hands by invading Syria is NOT playing into their hands and doing nothing.



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18 Nov 2015, 9:51 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
and this another interesting poll in Jordan:

Quote:
Recent polling results suggest that King Abdullah's low-profile policy toward Syria is well calculated to keep him out of trouble.


http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/poli ... to-stay-ou

Quote:
Assad, Russia, Hezbollah All Viewed Very Negatively, Along with ISIS

Jordanians see no "good guys" in Syria today: the Syrian regime, its outside supporters, and its main internal enemy all receive highly unfavorable ratings. Asked their view of each player "considering their recent policies," Jordanians rated Syria's government at 91 percent "fairly negative" or "very negative." The Syrian government's allies -- Russia and Hezbollah -- also get very bad reviews: the two are tied, each receiving an 86 percent negative rating. But Jordanians view these Syrian players' common enemy, ISIS, even more poorly: the group is rated 89 percent "very negative," with an additional 3 percent "fairly negative" score.

Iran Also Considered a Major Problem

Similarly, when asked about Iran's recent policies, Jordanians overwhelmingly characterize them very negatively (50 percent) or fairly negatively (43 percent). The recent P 5+1 nuclear deal with Iran is also seen as problematic: just one-third of those polled classified the agreement as a good deal, compared with the plurality (45 percent), who call it bad; one-fifth say they don't know enough to judge.

Looking ahead, only 13 percent of Jordanians expect Arab-Iranian relations to improve; a narrow majority (53 percent) say those relations will get worse, while 29 percent predict they will remain about the same. More unexpectedly, given a list of six regional conflicts including Syria, Yemen, Israel-Palestine, and ISIS, a plurality of Jordanians say top priority should be either "the conflict between Iran and Arab countries" (15 percent) or "the conflict between sects or movements of Islam" (13 percent).


Jordanians dislike all major fighting sides in Syria and want to stay out.


Very interesting information. Thanks for sharing this! I thought the respondent demographic information was quite interesting, too.



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18 Nov 2015, 10:15 am

It's kind of sad that this thread about the horrible attack in Beirut was so filled with a squabble about islamophobic anti-immigrant sentiment.

I think people have a heard of so many terrible things from Beirut over the years that some of them don't differentiate new information from their general sense of "that kind of thing" happening there a lot. They don't differentiate between civil war, Sharon's tanks, Hizbollah, US Marines, etc.



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18 Nov 2015, 10:37 am

The islamophobic and anti-immigrant sentiments happened even way before the Paris attacks (and Paris attacks is turning out not to be done by refugees https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... dont-know/ , the passport is fake)
Their governments (at least of the major powers) are being involved directly in the Syrian war to their ears, yet they don't want to take any refugees caused by this war, they don't also want to fulfill their obligation toward the UN.

Lebanon hosts approximately 1.2 million of (registered) refugees from Syria which amounts to around one in five people in the country, which amounts to 1/4 of total population.
Jordan hosts about 650,000 refugees from Syria, which amounts to about 10% of the population.
Turkey hosts 1.9 million refugees from Syria, more than any other country worldwide.
Iraq where 3 million people have been internally displaced in the last 18 months hosts 249,463 refugees from Syria.
Egypt hosts 132,375 refugees from Syria.

At this moment I wouldn't mind the couple of millions of refugees residing now in Europe to be back and added to our millions of refugees in our regions - if it makes the White Europeans stop bitching about it all everywhere all around the hour. Personally, I got sick of hearing it, I vote for Europe to send them back, send all of them back, every single one of them but please just shut up, I beg you. :lol:.

But bear in mind that anything may happen in the future, like umm...an ice age for example hurting Europe the most, http://www.sciencealert.com/a-mini-ice- ... t-15-years, and some would treat the European refugees in reciprocated manner.



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18 Nov 2015, 12:24 pm

Yes, the terrorist incidents seem like an excuse for the existing racists and xenophobes to do their thing.

When I was in Basel I got a taste of the the thing that is happening in Germany and it was not pretty. On the cusp of the German and French parts of Switzerland, that city has a large Turkish population, a legacy of the shortage of males in the aftermath of the second World War. On one side of the Rhein is "Grosse Basel" - mostly French and German, relatively prosperous. On the other side of the river is "Klein Basel" - poor and in parts heavily industrial and mostly Turkish.

Immigration by Turks was encouraged after the war because laborers were needed, but now they are a ghettoized "social problem" -It's a rich city, but the Turkish minority has been kept from a proportional share of the wealth they helped to create. Now they are blamed for being poor and not really participating in traditional Swiss culture.

Quite a lot of racism and xenophobia on display along that interface.

I an recall my cousin's tales of Beirut from the 1960s. Great beaches. Amazing food and restaurants. A wonderful place. So much of the image that has been created lately has been so distorted--the "Homeland" effect:
Image

It's very refreshing to have real information.