Which religion had done the most good? The most bad?

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MonsterCrack
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21 Nov 2015, 3:22 pm

I think the religion that has contributed the most to the world is either Judaism or Islam, while the one that has done the most bad is either Christianity or Islam.... Both Judaism and Islam have made great strides in science and academics, and contributed a lot to civilization, and Judaism is said to have made 1/3 of western civilization, while Islam is said to have sparked the renaissance and brought an end to the dark ages, and both Christianity and Islam have caused tremendous suffering by means of slavery, genocide, conquering, and killing..... what do you think? do you think a religion i haven't mentioned should make the list? why or why not?



The_Walrus
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21 Nov 2015, 5:32 pm

Christianity for both. There are billions of Christians who have done loads of good and bad in the name of their religion over the past 2000 years.

Judaism has never been more than a fringe religion. Islam has not had enough time to catch up to Christianity and hasn't had as many followers anyway.

I guess Hinduism could be a contender.

I'd argue that most of the achievements in the OP aren't the achievements of the religion. They were achieved by people who follow the religion, but the religion didn't have any influence.

You can't blame Christianity for the Transatlantic Slave Trade, or Islam for the Arabic/East African slave trade, but you can blame Christianity (or particular Puritan interpretations) for Salem and Islam (or particular Wahhabist interpretations) for 9/11.



cathylynn
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21 Nov 2015, 5:36 pm

christian missionaries start hospitals and schools. i'm not letting them off the hook for the inquisition, but they do some good things.



Wolfram87
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21 Nov 2015, 6:59 pm

Religions are sets of ideas. Sets of ideas do not do anything. That being said, I think Christians, at least in instances where Christianity hasn't been the dominant religion, have done more good, both for Christians and non-Christians in need (at least counted in sheer volume), than have jews and muslims, who seem to have a more pronounced in-group/out-group mentality. I don't know how Buddhism would fare in the comparison, but I don't think they have quite the same history of tribalistic mentality, even if it too isn't exactly innocent.


MonsterCrack wrote:
Both Judaism and Islam have made great strides in science and academics


Remaining in the realm of the hard sciences:

Muslim heritage Nobel price laureates in science: 3

Jewish heritage Nobel price laureates in science: 138

I think you might be banging that drum a little harder than is warranted.


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MonsterCrack
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21 Nov 2015, 7:23 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Religions are sets of ideas. Sets of ideas do not do anything. That being said, I think Christians, at least in instances where Christianity hasn't been the dominant religion, have done more good, both for Christians and non-Christians in need (at least counted in sheer volume), than have jews and muslims, who seem to have a more pronounced in-group/out-group mentality. I don't know how Buddhism would fare in the comparison, but I don't think they have quite the same history of tribalistic mentality, even if it too isn't exactly innocent.


MonsterCrack wrote:
Both Judaism and Islam have made great strides in science and academics


Remaining in the realm of the hard sciences:

Muslim heritage Nobel price laureates in science: 3

Jewish heritage Nobel price laureates in science: 138

I think you might be banging that drum a little harder than is warranted.
The Nobel prize was invented relatively recently... I am referring to medieval achievements, and contributions in the early modern period.



Wolfram87
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22 Nov 2015, 5:33 am

The Nobel price is by now 120 year old, so I don't think it's an entirely unfair way to compare the scientific contributions done by various groups. Even if it ultimately means nothing, I thought the ratio of 138:3 was worth pointing out since you bang on about islams contributions to science.

You say islam is said to have sparked the renaissance. By whom is this said? Because it doesn't seem to be true.
"The Republic of Plato, though translated into Arabic, was not subsequently translated into Latin." [Adamson, Peter. The Cambridge Companion to Arabic Philosophy. Cambridge, UK: Cambridge UP, 2005. Print.]
It's true that the arabic language played a role similar to latin in science today as a bridge between cultures and schools of thought. But arabic is not synonymous with islam, and most translators between arabic and other major languages at the time were christians or jews, not muslim scholars.


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Islamic philosophy is a misnomer; at least, what we in the West think of as Islamic philosophy is. It is not Islamic in the sense of being rooted in Islam or even in the weaker sense of being melded to it. It is based rather on those vaunted translations from Greek and has a higher allegiance to Neoplatonism than to Islam. It considered philosophy the highest expression of truth, available only to the wisest, and Islam a lower expression suitable for the masses. It believed that the Koran is temporal, not eternal, and that God knows only universals, not particulars. In short, it was in opposition to what we and most Muslims think of as Islam.


Quote:
In A History of Islamic Societies (Cambridge University Press, 2002), Ira M. Lapidus, Professor Emeritus at Berkeley, a mild and genial apologist for Islam, admits that

[Islamic] philosophers did not truly reconcile Greek thought to Islam; rather, they tried to rationalize their acceptance of Greek philosophy in terms of Islam. Their metaphysical and religious mentality was based on Greek opinions rather than Quranic tradition. Philosophy, they thought, was a higher vision, superior to the revealed but inferior version of truth known as Islam.

They were 'remote from the mainstream of Islamic religious and cultural trends.'


Sources
(I don't like using AT as a source for anything, but I thought this bit was well formulated.


Quote:
if what is in the library agrees with the contents of the Qur’an, then it is redundant. And, if the contents of the library do not agree with the Qur’an, then such contents are heretic.

Said by caliph Omar, justifying burning all books that aren't the qur'an. So much for preserving knowledge...


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MonsterCrack
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22 Nov 2015, 9:28 am

Caliph Omar never had all other books besides the Qur'an burned....
http://www.twf.org/Library/Renaissance.html



Wolfram87
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22 Nov 2015, 12:27 pm

I meant that the reasoning he used could be used to justify destroying all books that aren't the qur'an. He did destroy libraries, and this was the justification he used. I'm not questioning that the arab world has been home to plenty of important developments, and served as the conduit for plenty more from the far east. I'm questioning that Islam deserves the credit, any more than Catholicism deserves credit for genetics and the battery, or Mormonism for headphones and the Colt 1911.


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MonsterCrack
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22 Nov 2015, 12:44 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
I meant that the reasoning he used could be used to justify destroying all books that aren't the qur'an. He did destroy libraries, and this was the justification he used. I'm not questioning that the arab world has been home to plenty of important developments, and served as the conduit for plenty more from the far east. I'm questioning that Islam deserves the credit, any more than Catholicism deserves credit for genetics and the battery, or Mormonism for headphones and the Colt 1911.

good point... however, the Qur'an and hadeeth encourage learning many, many times,and this is what lead to extraordinary achievements by the arabs in academics....



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22 Nov 2015, 1:20 pm

So why did it stop? Even supposing that the ideas and ideals of the renaissance formed in, say, andalusian spain and spread to europe from there, why didn't those same ideas cascade through the muslim world and raise the floor in the same way they did in europe? The explanation I've read is that when the qur'an speaks of learning, it's interpreted to mean religious education, not secular science. I'd certainly encourage interpreting it otherwhise, but that's the reason I've read for the state of science in the middle east being in its abyssmal state.


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22 Nov 2015, 7:12 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
So why did it stop? Even supposing that the ideas and ideals of the renaissance formed in, say, andalusian spain and spread to europe from there, why didn't those same ideas cascade through the muslim world and raise the floor in the same way they did in europe? The explanation I've read is that when the qur'an speaks of learning, it's interpreted to mean religious education, not secular science. I'd certainly encourage interpreting it otherwhise, but that's the reason I've read for the state of science in the middle east being in its abyssmal state.
the middle east has abandoned science and technology due to infighting, disunity, constant bloodshed, colonialism, and a loss of respect for materialist values.... when the Qur'an and sunnah speak of knowledge, it does not just refer to religious knowledge, and unfortunately, the muslim world after colonialism has decided to blame others for their problems, and soak in their arrogance (especially during their decline, which is why europe caught up to them), in addition to some damage by colonialism as damage by refusing to industrialize.... and THAT is why science has been abandoned.... the ottoms thought they wouldbe the superpower forever, which is why they refused to industrialize, and the rise of nationalism among other things led to it's fragmentation..... and there were also the fact that infighting left the muslims open to destruction by the mongols.



DailyPoutine1
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22 Nov 2015, 8:40 pm

Christianity and Islam have both done lots of evil s**t. Though I think Christians may be worse. Judaism, Buddhism an Hinduism are good from what I know.



Neotenous Nordic
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22 Nov 2015, 9:10 pm

DailyPoutine1 wrote:
Christianity and Islam have both done lots of evil s**t.


Are they the only ones?



DailyPoutine1
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22 Nov 2015, 9:18 pm

Neotenous Nordic wrote:
DailyPoutine1 wrote:
Christianity and Islam have both done lots of evil s**t.


Are they the only ones?

No, Hinduists aren't of the cleanest either but you get my point. Also some other minor sects and cults (Because after all religions are just cults) can be equally as bad and promote wrong things.



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22 Nov 2015, 9:38 pm

DailyPoutine1 wrote:
Christianity and Islam have both done lots of evil s**t. Though I think Christians may be worse. Judaism, Buddhism an Hinduism are good from what I know.


Well not to defend Christianity as you are entitled to your opinion but man doesn't represent God in Christianity, and can't because we are flawed.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. - Matthew 6:9-10

That tells use that Gods will is not done on Earth, he stays out of out affairs.

Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. - Ecclesiastes 7:20

This tells us that even those who are Christian will still make mistakes and sin,

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7:22-23

And finally just because those are Christian does not mean they are saved by Christian definition and therefore they cannot represent the kingdom of God.

I am not trying to start an argument here, I am just merely pointing out that in Christianity, this topic is a mute point. Primarily cause the sins of man doesn't equal the sins of God nor does it make that religion bad per say. Men's hearts are evil, not the religion they follow.



lunarious87
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23 Nov 2015, 9:49 am

Along with the contribution to the renesseance in Eroupe, bringing them from the dark ages to the age of sicence there was a muslims who invented algoritms, which allows for computers to exist. And algebra. Algebra is called according to a muslim know as translitterated Gaber Ibn Hayaan (gaber, algebra).

The reason that Muslims have stopped progressing, is because we believe in the unknown added to the fact that we must seek knowledge. Believing the unknown leads to fear, and fear is far more effective that love. And it lasts longer. So we end up having strong faith in God, armed with knowledge. And islam pr definition is from the brain and the light (light is symbolic for positivity and power and all good things). And ... the reason we are not progressing is not within my knowledge, but God knows better. And I have faith in that. So you can say it is a secret that God holds.

Islam and Christinaity believes in the last day, the day of judgment, armageddom. And Allah reveals that to whom he selects. And only they know. After that is paradise.