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androbot01
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14 Jan 2016, 3:34 pm

... will fail.

Our Western culture is geared to the most functional. This has come about naturally as the most functional are the most successful. I get this for sure. Survival of the fittest.

But, I argue that we have come to a time in our civilization in which the contributions of those who do not conform to the standard can be seen for the value they offer. We are not in survival mode anymore. ISIS is not going to destroy us no matter how much they kick and shout. We are blessed to be in a civilized community. And strong enough to overlook the failings for the strengths.

I think that the culture of perfection is flawed because of its vanity. It is on a path to nihilistic self-destruction. If the neurotypical world can loosen its grip, it will find strength in those that are different. At least I hope so, because I don't want to accept that those who are functional will not work with those who are different.



0_equals_true
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14 Jan 2016, 6:33 pm

Define NT.

Other neuro-diverse communities could have their own NT, and this may even overlap with us.

ND are not mutually exclusive of NT.

Our societies have would have never succeed without multiple roles and types of people. How those roles are value can change. This is survival of the fitness (most misunderstood concept in biology) not just through the individual but as a group.

I agree with what you say about idealism and the path to perfection being counter productive. Having a diversity of ideas means that there is better chance of progress. However perfection is quite a general word so it really depend on what is meant and how it is applied.

Thing like the conflicts in the middle east and the rest of the world can be deceptive. From a historical perspective, they is absolutely no doubt that we have become less an less violent. Conflict in the past centuries killed far more people, and further you go back the higher the numbers.

Don't get me wrong we still can be extremely violent animals at time even today. I is just becoming less an less in out interests to be that way.

The fact that we generally find conflict so abhorrent and regrettable is more novelty. Violence was taken for granted more in the past. It was a fact of life.

What makes us unique as a species?To me is the capacity to contort and mold our very nature in order together live in high numbers, and create live in our own environment. Of course we still have some of out more "primal" behaviors that come out too.

I think mental illness is a side effect of the necessity to contort our nature, not that the alternative is better.



kraftiekortie
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14 Jan 2016, 7:16 pm

I believe a person who tolerates differences amongst their fellow humans tends to be a better person, overall--and smarter as well. They tend to make better decisions in important matters. They are not stymied by their xenophobic passions.



shlaifu
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14 Jan 2016, 8:06 pm

... We found a way to overproduce and still have people starve to death.
We overproduce cheap garbage, because overproduction makes our world go round, and we eat said planet up to do so.

I think we need to figure out a sensible way to allocate our resources before we can call ourselves post-artificial-scarcity.

So... A change in system is dearly needed, and for that, people thinking out of the box are needed

Oh. Isis is not going to bring the west down. But there's still three nuclear powers at work in that area. One offered shelter to Osama Bin Laden, one has been at War with muslim palestine for 60 years, and one is about to elect either a democrat- or one of several guys threatening to nuke iran without reason.
So.... Isis is not a threat to the world. The combination US-Israel-Pakistan might.


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Aristophanes
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14 Jan 2016, 8:21 pm

shlaifu wrote:
... We found a way to overproduce and still have people starve to death.
We overproduce cheap garbage, because overproduction makes our world go round, and we eat said planet up to do so.

I think we need to figure out a sensible way to allocate our resources before we can call ourselves post-artificial-scarcity.

So... A change in system is dearly needed, and for that, people thonking out of the box are needed.


We haven't "found" anything, that's just nature. An animal will keep consuming until all the easy food to acquire is gone. It will keep reproducing even if it has adult offspring to continue it's lineage. This greed is what's allowed evolution to continue for 540 million years-- an apex predator is at the top of the food chain, but it isn't god, if it consumes the levels below it then it too will go extinct from lack of food. Greed is nature's way of recycling the top of the food chain. No apex species can resist, not even humans, because every species that has gotten to apex status has done so through mass consumption-- it's in their DNA.



Kraichgauer
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14 Jan 2016, 8:23 pm

shlaifu wrote:
... We found a way to overproduce and still have people starve to death.
We overproduce cheap garbage, because overproduction makes our world go round, and we eat said planet up to do so.

I think we need to figure out a sensible way to allocate our resources before we can call ourselves post-artificial-scarcity.

So... A change in system is dearly needed, and for that, people thinking out of the box are needed

Oh. Isis is not going to bring the west down. But there's still three nuclear powers at work in that area. One offered shelter to Osama Bin Laden, one has been at War with muslim palestine for 60 years, and one is about to elect either a democrat- or one of several guys threatening to nuke iran without reason.
So.... Isis is not a threat to the world. The combination US-Israel-Pakistan might.


You forgot to mention Russia.


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naturalplastic
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15 Jan 2016, 5:09 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
... We found a way to overproduce and still have people starve to death.
We overproduce cheap garbage, because overproduction makes our world go round, and we eat said planet up to do so.

I think we need to figure out a sensible way to allocate our resources before we can call ourselves post-artificial-scarcity.

So... A change in system is dearly needed, and for that, people thinking out of the box are needed

Oh. Isis is not going to bring the west down. But there's still three nuclear powers at work in that area. One offered shelter to Osama Bin Laden, one has been at War with muslim palestine for 60 years, and one is about to elect either a democrat- or one of several guys threatening to nuke iran without reason.
So.... Isis is not a threat to the world. The combination US-Israel-Pakistan might.


You forgot to mention Russia.


Yep.

And now Nuke power Russia has boots on the ground in Syria right between nuke power Isreal, and the Nuke Power US's Nato ally Turkey. Three nuclear powers are now rubbing elbows in a region smaller than the average American state! Lovely!



androbot01
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15 Jan 2016, 8:42 am

0_equals_true wrote:
Define NT.

For the sake of this discussion I am defining NT as neurological perfection. I know that this probably doesn't exist in practice, but I'm speaking conceptually.

Quote:
I think mental illness is a side effect of the necessity to contort our nature, not that the alternative is better.

My nature has been contorted in a bad way.

kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe a person who tolerates differences amongst their fellow humans tends to be a better person, overall--and smarter as well. They tend to make better decisions in important matters. They are not stymied by their xenophobic passions.

Exactly. This kind of thinking should be encouraged.

shlaifu wrote:
... We found a way to overproduce and still have people starve to death.
We overproduce cheap garbage, because overproduction makes our world go round, and we eat said planet up to do so.

I think we need to figure out a sensible way to allocate our resources before we can call ourselves post-artificial-scarcity.

So... A change in system is dearly needed, and for that, people thinking out of the box are needed

Consumerism is so vacant, but it does appeal to our hunter/gatherer instincts. It's too bad this is being exploited for financial gain.

Aristophanes wrote:
This greed is what's allowed evolution to continue for 540 million years-- an apex predator is at the top of the food chain, but it isn't god, if it consumes the levels below it then it too will go extinct from lack of food. Greed is nature's way of recycling the top of the food chain. No apex species can resist, not even humans, because every species that has gotten to apex status has done so through mass consumption-- it's in their DNA.

You think we'd be able to recognize this in ourselves as a flaw, but instead we celebrate it.

And yes it is possible we could all go up in a nuclear bang, but then it doesn't matter anyway.



Aristophanes
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15 Jan 2016, 9:16 am

androbot01 wrote:

Aristophanes wrote:
This greed is what's allowed evolution to continue for 540 million years-- an apex predator is at the top of the food chain, but it isn't god, if it consumes the levels below it then it too will go extinct from lack of food. Greed is nature's way of recycling the top of the food chain. No apex species can resist, not even humans, because every species that has gotten to apex status has done so through mass consumption-- it's in their DNA.

You think we'd be able to recognize this in ourselves as a flaw, but instead we celebrate it.

And yes it is possible we could all go up in a nuclear bang, but then it doesn't matter anyway.


I don't view nature/life as some random anomaly, but as an extension of physics and thus mathematical at it's core. Thus nature is only a framework for solving a problem. It's my belief that nature keeps rewarding intelligence because at the end of the equation is a species smart enough to learn self control, thus eliminating the need for nature itself. If an animal can live with nature, not under its control or trying to control it, but as equal, then that species will live indefinitely-- there's no need for further evolution. Sadly, I don't think humans are that species, we've gotten 5/5 on the lottery ticket but missed the powerball number. Our broken husk of a civilization is merely part of the broader equation-- we're leaving physical evidence for the next sentient species on this planet to make wiser decisions than we did. That species will be immortal, but us, we're just temporary and we run our societies as such.



androbot01
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15 Jan 2016, 11:10 am

Aristophanes wrote:
I don't view nature/life as some random anomaly, but as an extension of physics and thus mathematical at it's core. Thus nature is only a framework for solving a problem.

Oh for sure, mathematics and science have shown that there is a consistency of behaviour in nature. I don't understand what you mean by using nature as a "framework for solving a problem." Do you mean that nature is a precedent that allows us to predict behaviour?