ABA vs. Neurodiversity
btbnnyr
Veteran
Joined: 18 May 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,359
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago
04 Feb 2016, 8:46 pm
*Child is diagnosed with autism at 2-3 years old, professionals recommend 40 hours per week of therapy, mostly ABA
*Parents listen to therapists and place child in recommended therapies
*Child does therapies for several years, they may become toilet trained (or not), but they don't learn to speak or communicate alternatively from ABA or speech therapy, develop minimally in self-help and social areas, don't develop generalizable skills even if they increase some numbers in specific ABA activity repeated tens of thousands of times, act out a lot
*Around age 8, therapists tell the parents that the child has reached a plateau and is too ret*d to learn anything, this is given as reason why child did not develop much since toddler years
*When child started school around age 5, they were placed in special ed aka babysitting and didn't learn anything academic
*Around age 10, therapists recommend the child be institutionalized for the rest of their life
From my experience as an ABA therapist for a profoundly autistic child (ages 10-12)
Age 10
*Child had already been diagnosed
*Child in self-contained autism class at school
*Able to say a few single word answers "Yes", "Want", "Please".
*Counts to 10
*Minimal grasp of pronouns
By 11
*Child can say phrases to describe location and simple sentences for wants and physical descriptions i.e. "In the box", "I want chocolate please." "He [Elmo toy] is red."
*Child writes alphabet and name
*Child counts to 20+
*Proficient with basic pronouns
*Learning possessive pronouns
By 12
*Child can say complete and compound sentences
*Child can understand and use reasoning
*Proficient with basic and possessive pronouns
*Child can add and subtract with visual representations (adding and removing bears)
*Child can use sequential statements "I give you bear then you give me chocolate chip."
*Begins understanding the concept of symbolic money (colorful plastic bears - red = 1 chocolate chip, blue = 2, green = 3, etc...)
*Will choose color with higher worth when asked between two choices, "Do you want to give me the red bear or the blue bear?" and as an open question "Which bear do you want to give me?" Changing the color values did not impede her ability to choose the higher value color.
*Child could answer how many chocolate chips she would get for each color and explain why "2 chips." Why? "Because I gave you blue bear."
*Child begins learning and using past, present, and future tenses appropriately.
*Able to answer questions about things that happened in the past "Where did you go for dinner yesterday?"
*Child begins learning time descriptions - days, months. Can answer "What day is today?" "What day was yesterday?" etc...
I worked with her for 1-2 hours at a time twice a week. I agree 40 hours of any therapy for a child is ridiculous. But ABA can be extremely helpful when it is done appropriately and not excessively. I never discouraged her stimming unless it was obvious that it was distracting her (very rarely) or it was destructive. I gave alternatives for destructive stims such as table tapping/keeping beats instead of hitting the table as hard as she could. She responded well with the alternatives.
While educating the public is important, the public being more knowledgeable about autism doesn't help an autistic person communicate. We need to approach this from both angles, teaching autistic people communication and independence skills as well as teaching the general public about autism.
Your description doesn't match the non-verbal, classic autistic children I know.
I went to some meetings of parents and autistic children, and these children ranging from age 8 to 18+ are not like your description.
ABA was not working for them, and they were unable to do most of the things on your list, none of the communication things.
However, they are making progress after getting out of ABA and getting started on education, learning reading, typing, and math using paper and computer.
It is not necessary to give them things as reward, some spontaneously practice their learning even outside class time, because they finally have a chance to learn new things and not do the same tasks thousands of times.
Before age 9, I was much less good at communication than the child your described at age 10, but after age 10, I was much better at communication than the current description of her at age 12.
Another thing that doesn't match is your description of ABA and the parents description of ABA for their children.
The ABA they described was not breaking real world tasks into smaller components and being rewarded for learning the components.
It was more likely repetitive activities done for many hours a week, and if the child doesn't reach a near-perfect score on an activity, they don't progress to the next level of activities, so the child could be stuck doing touch your nose for years while not developing much in any area and acting out a lot.
In some videos I saw, it was clear that the child had no idea what was going on or what they were supposed to do, and the therapist continued saying things the child didn't understand or operating the activity that the child didn't understand.
There was nothing unusual about these therapies, it was the standard course of ABA that all the parents were familiar with.
_________________
Drain and plane and grain and blain your brain, and then again,
Propane and butane out of the gas main, your blain shall sustain!
Last edited by btbnnyr on 04 Feb 2016, 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
04 Feb 2016, 9:14 pm
*Child is diagnosed with autism at 2-3 years old, professionals recommend 40 hours per week of therapy, mostly ABA
*Parents listen to therapists and place child in recommended therapies
*Child does therapies for several years, they may become toilet trained (or not), but they don't learn to speak or communicate alternatively from ABA or speech therapy, develop minimally in self-help and social areas, don't develop generalizable skills even if they increase some numbers in specific ABA activity repeated tens of thousands of times, act out a lot
*Around age 8, therapists tell the parents that the child has reached a plateau and is too ret*d to learn anything, this is given as reason why child did not develop much since toddler years
*When child started school around age 5, they were placed in special ed aka babysitting and didn't learn anything academic
*Around age 10, therapists recommend the child be institutionalized for the rest of their life
From my experience as an ABA therapist for a profoundly autistic child (ages 10-12)
Age 10
*Child had already been diagnosed
*Child in self-contained autism class at school
*Able to say a few single word answers "Yes", "Want", "Please".
*Counts to 10
*Minimal grasp of pronouns
By 11
*Child can say phrases to describe location and simple sentences for wants and physical descriptions i.e. "In the box", "I want chocolate please." "He [Elmo toy] is red."
*Child writes alphabet and name
*Child counts to 20+
*Proficient with basic pronouns
*Learning possessive pronouns
By 12
*Child can say complete and compound sentences
*Child can understand and use reasoning
*Proficient with basic and possessive pronouns
*Child can add and subtract with visual representations (adding and removing bears)
*Child can use sequential statements "I give you bear then you give me chocolate chip."
*Begins understanding the concept of symbolic money (colorful plastic bears - red = 1 chocolate chip, blue = 2, green = 3, etc...)
*Will choose color with higher worth when asked between two choices, "Do you want to give me the red bear or the blue bear?" and as an open question "Which bear do you want to give me?" Changing the color values did not impede her ability to choose the higher value color.
*Child could answer how many chocolate chips she would get for each color and explain why "2 chips." Why? "Because I gave you blue bear."
*Child begins learning and using past, present, and future tenses appropriately.
*Able to answer questions about things that happened in the past "Where did you go for dinner yesterday?"
*Child begins learning time descriptions - days, months. Can answer "What day is today?" "What day was yesterday?" etc...
I worked with her for 1-2 hours at a time twice a week. I agree 40 hours of any therapy for a child is ridiculous. But ABA can be extremely helpful when it is done appropriately and not excessively. I never discouraged her stimming unless it was obvious that it was distracting her (very rarely) or it was destructive. I gave alternatives for destructive stims such as table tapping/keeping beats instead of hitting the table as hard as she could. She responded well with the alternatives.
While educating the public is important, the public being more knowledgeable about autism doesn't help an autistic person communicate. We need to approach this from both angles, teaching autistic people communication and independence skills as well as teaching the general public about autism.
Your description doesn't match the non-verbal, classic autistic children I know.
I went to some meetings of parents and autistic children, and these children ranging from age 8 to 18+ are not like your description.
ABA was not working for them, and they were unable to do most of the things on your list, none of the communication things.
However, they are making progress after getting out of ABA and getting started on education, learning reading, typing, and math using paper and computer.
It is not necessary to give them things as reward, some spontaneously practice their learning even outside class time, because they finally have a chance to learn new things and not do the same tasks thousands of times.
Before age 9, I was much less good at communication than the child your described at age 10, but after age 10, I was much better at communication than the current description of her at age 12.
Okay? That doesn't disprove my point that ABA can be beneficial. Like that oft-repeated phrase, "If you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person." What works for one may not work for another. Even among NTs there are a variety of learning styles. No teaching method is a one-size-fits-all thing but just because it doesn't work for some or even the majority doesn't mean it should be gotten rid of as long as it helps even one person learn. Furthermore, maybe those kids just had crappy ABA therapists who focused too much on suppressing stims and not enough on actual teaching. Properly done ABA might have helped them.
_________________
Diagnosed Asperger's - 2007
Current AQ score: 43
Current PDD score: 105 - moderate
http://www.childbrain.com/pddassess.html
-Socially awkward and special interests don't mean autism.-
androbot01
Veteran
Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada
04 Feb 2016, 9:20 pm
I still disagree. I think the one person helped is outnumbered by the many harmed. ABA is just fundamentally disrespectful of a different way of experiencing life.
btbnnyr
Veteran
Joined: 18 May 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,359
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago
04 Feb 2016, 9:21 pm
Sometimes, the parents mentioned that the therapists really believed that the child was progressing a lot, but when I and others watched some ABA videos, it was obvious that the child didn't understand what was going on.
_________________
Drain and plane and grain and blain your brain, and then again,
Propane and butane out of the gas main, your blain shall sustain!
05 Feb 2016, 6:09 pm
I apologize for the fact that you have only ever had bad experiences with ABA. Things have changed a great deal since Lovaas pioneered it. There are no aversives, only absence of a reward (be it verbal praise or a tangible thing like candy) when an incorrect or no response is given. As for the person who said bullying was good, that's just ridiculous. Bullying is never good for anyone, autistic or not. I can't speak for every ABA therapist, but for me and the other behavior therapists I've spoken to, our focus is what's in the best interest of the child, which is why a primary aspect of ABA is teaching some form of communication and also replacing violent/destructive stims with safe alternatives. Independence skills can be taught with ABA such as going to the store, getting what you want, coping with excessive sensory input (covering your ears/wearing headphones, wearing a baseball cap for bright lights, small stimming movements like hand-tapping or rocking a bit), going to the register/self-scan, paying, putting it in bags if necessary, riding public transportation, putting it away when you get home, making a meal, etc...
ABA is basically breaking tasks down into smaller, easier components and rewarding each step as they learn it until they can complete the task independently.
You speak about the best interests of the child as if you have great certainty of what that is. But then your description of ABA is concerned with teaching how to execute tasks, and how to communicate with others. While those may seem useful, they are ultimately worthless if the child is not motivated to perform such tasks, or have the desire to be sociable with others.
IMO early intervention for autistic children should be aimed at creating relationships and facilitating enthusiasm for activities before any teaching occurs.
05 Feb 2016, 7:52 pm
I apologize for the fact that you have only ever had bad experiences with ABA. Things have changed a great deal since Lovaas pioneered it. There are no aversives, only absence of a reward (be it verbal praise or a tangible thing like candy) when an incorrect or no response is given. As for the person who said bullying was good, that's just ridiculous. Bullying is never good for anyone, autistic or not. I can't speak for every ABA therapist, but for me and the other behavior therapists I've spoken to, our focus is what's in the best interest of the child, which is why a primary aspect of ABA is teaching some form of communication and also replacing violent/destructive stims with safe alternatives. Independence skills can be taught with ABA such as going to the store, getting what you want, coping with excessive sensory input (covering your ears/wearing headphones, wearing a baseball cap for bright lights, small stimming movements like hand-tapping or rocking a bit), going to the register/self-scan, paying, putting it in bags if necessary, riding public transportation, putting it away when you get home, making a meal, etc...
ABA is basically breaking tasks down into smaller, easier components and rewarding each step as they learn it until they can complete the task independently.
You speak about the best interests of the child as if you have great certainty of what that is. But then your description of ABA is concerned with teaching how to execute tasks, and how to communicate with others. While those may seem useful, they are ultimately worthless if the child is not motivated to perform such tasks, or have the desire to be sociable with others.
IMO early intervention for autistic children should be aimed at creating relationships and facilitating enthusiasm for activities before any teaching occurs.
I don't teach communication for socializing. I teach it so they can have their wants and needs understood and not have to resort to physical aggression/SIB as a means of communication. I was also providing ABA with an older child who was already in school for several years. For younger kids who need therapies, play-based is always best in my opinion. For older kids (and anyone really), therapies seem most effective when the child has a say in what is done. When she wanted a break to swing or jump on the trampoline, that's what we did. If she got distracted by a tree or a butterfly or flinging dirt to make clouds, I would give a mini-lesson on whatever it was. Yes, there was a lesson on types of dirt and why that particular kind made dirt clouds. If she was sick of something, we moved on to something else.
_________________
Diagnosed Asperger's - 2007
Current AQ score: 43
Current PDD score: 105 - moderate
http://www.childbrain.com/pddassess.html
-Socially awkward and special interests don't mean autism.-
06 Feb 2016, 12:15 pm
I apologize for the fact that you have only ever had bad experiences with ABA. Things have changed a great deal since Lovaas pioneered it. There are no aversives, only absence of a reward (be it verbal praise or a tangible thing like candy) when an incorrect or no response is given. As for the person who said bullying was good, that's just ridiculous. Bullying is never good for anyone, autistic or not. I can't speak for every ABA therapist, but for me and the other behavior therapists I've spoken to, our focus is what's in the best interest of the child, which is why a primary aspect of ABA is teaching some form of communication and also replacing violent/destructive stims with safe alternatives. Independence skills can be taught with ABA such as going to the store, getting what you want, coping with excessive sensory input (covering your ears/wearing headphones, wearing a baseball cap for bright lights, small stimming movements like hand-tapping or rocking a bit), going to the register/self-scan, paying, putting it in bags if necessary, riding public transportation, putting it away when you get home, making a meal, etc...
ABA is basically breaking tasks down into smaller, easier components and rewarding each step as they learn it until they can complete the task independently.
You speak about the best interests of the child as if you have great certainty of what that is. But then your description of ABA is concerned with teaching how to execute tasks, and how to communicate with others. While those may seem useful, they are ultimately worthless if the child is not motivated to perform such tasks, or have the desire to be sociable with others.
IMO early intervention for autistic children should be aimed at creating relationships and facilitating enthusiasm for activities before any teaching occurs.
I don't teach communication for socializing. I teach it so they can have their wants and needs understood and not have to resort to physical aggression/SIB as a means of communication. I was also providing ABA with an older child who was already in school for several years. For younger kids who need therapies, play-based is always best in my opinion. For older kids (and anyone really), therapies seem most effective when the child has a say in what is done. When she wanted a break to swing or jump on the trampoline, that's what we did. If she got distracted by a tree or a butterfly or flinging dirt to make clouds, I would give a mini-lesson on whatever it was. Yes, there was a lesson on types of dirt and why that particular kind made dirt clouds. If she was sick of something, we moved on to something else.
Okay, I wasn't commenting on what you do in particular, just on the general state of autism interventions. I agree that following the child's lead is important in almost all intervention types.
06 Feb 2016, 3:02 pm
I think a modified form of CBT would be much more effective than ABA. The problem with reward based behaviour modification like ABA is that it tends to extinguish when the rewards stop. I began my teaching career working with children who had what was then called 'emotional and behavioural difficulties'. In a behaviourally focussed school rewards and lack of rewards (which was the punishment used) were used to help the children change to more 'acceptable' behaviour. (In this instance acceptable was usually to do with not harming themselves or others and not running away and making an effort to learn.) But not only did this system completely fail to help the children in the long run but it also showed them what was wanted but didn't give them any support in how to actually do what was wanted so their self-esteem was at rock bottom. Short term rewards also blinded them to how the changes we were askiung them to make might help them in their future lives. Put simply it was imposed on them and they were not engaged with it - they were bludgeoned by it (metaphorically). I thought it was significantly floored and did more harm than good.
Later on I worked in a very different environment with a different approach. The approach was the best I've seen. Basically there were three parts to it:
1. The relationship between the child and their teacher and support worker was made one of trust and care - always. This was a very high priority.
2. A means of communication was established in a way which worked for the child and which the adults concerned could manage.
3. Problems were then talked about and explained so the child could understand what was happening and how to help himself or herself (or how to ask for help if that was more appropriate). Together the child and adult would come up with solutions and they would be tried and then evaluated together. Did this help? Did this work for you? etc.
It was much more successful and the things the children in this environment learned they kept and built on because they were part of it.
I think the problem with ABA for me is that the behvaiour modification paradigm always seems dehumanising because of the way the process seeems to be done to a person rather than worked on with a person with their consent and cooperation.
It's this aspect of ABA which really touches my nerves because as an autistic person myself I am aware that some of my natural behaviours are not always helpful to me socially and I choose to hide them in some instances and to change them to a more socially acceptable form in others. However this is my choice when I've thought about it. On my own I can still rock or hand-flap or whatever without feeling ashamed. In my professional life though I avoid doing that because it helps my life and work. The difference between me modifiying my own behaviour and ABA being used on me might seem small but it's a big deal. Being forced to stop being yourself by others is soul destroying; being free to change something when you choose to has human dignity.
Just my views.
_________________
"That's no moon - it's a spacestation."
Diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ICD10)
androbot01
Veteran
Joined: 17 Sep 2014
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,746
Location: Kingston, Ontario, Canada
06 Feb 2016, 3:06 pm
Exactly. They shun you to let you know that it's "bad." But don't offer any suggestions. Like they want you to keep failing.
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,465
Location: Long Island, New York
09 Feb 2016, 4:44 pm
If you know one person who did well with ABA you know one person that did well with ABA that would be all fine and dandy if in America there were other realistic options. American autistic policy says ABA is the gold standard no need for further discussion. Most efforts to create autistic services for children revolve around funding ABA.
Most parents who want to buck the experts and find another treatment, will have little choice but to pay in full and move a long long way from home just to get on a long waiting list. Most families can't afford this.
Those of us who do not like ABA as a concept for whatever reason have little recourse beyond WP rants and ASAN statements. The experts have most of the studies they can point to,and they can always say you have few if any studies to back you up. We can say we do not have any studies because few people want to fund a "settled" matter, we can say thier studies are based on the flawed concept of ABA of making autistics indistinguishable from thier peers we can say history is replete with "settled" concepts that were dead wrong all we want but we have little chance of reaching policy makers and parents dealing with what they have to deal with. But we have to carry on because all "settled" matters were proven wrong by people who were just as much outliers as us. And we have an advantage those other outiers did not have, the internet.
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
29 Feb 2016, 9:05 pm
An apology from a former ABA practitioner who writes this compelling account of why ABA is wrong in all aspects:
https://sociallyanxiousadvocate.wordpre ... -left-aba/
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,465
Location: Long Island, New York
01 Mar 2016, 2:35 am
Autism Speaks and the media live go on and on about what a finiancial and time burden "autism" is, all the while designating as "gold standard" a costly therapy that involves a lot of parental time.
Then later on you often have a self hating gullable adult who does not know how to say no. This will be blamed on lack of theory of mind when it is the brainwashing createing the problem or the brainwashing making the existing theory of mind issue worse.
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 34,465
Location: Long Island, New York
02 Mar 2016, 12:59 am
In another demonstration of Autism Speaks raw political power it has been announced that insurance companies must cover ABA for America's largest employer the Federal Government. Previous lobbying by Autism Speaks has mandated insurance companies cover ABA in 43 of the nations 50 states. Autism Speaks has created a situation for most parents of autistic children in America to either accept ABA therapy or be the Autism therapists themselves. In prevoius decades the only realistic choices for most parents was do it themselves or institutionalization, then just do it themselves. Insurence companies can cover other therapies but why would the do that when there are few studies about other treatments because Autism Speaks and the ABA lobby has monopolized reaseach into treatments?
Autism Therapy To Become Mandatory Benefit For Federal Workers
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
It is Autism Acceptance Month
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
AardvarkGoodSwimmer
Veteran
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,663
Location: Houston, Texas
09 Mar 2016, 5:06 pm
To the person on page 2 who gave the analogy that it's like there's a bunch of sick cats, and the only model the vet has is groups of healthy dogs.
I love this analogy! 
And yes, I will choose both and. I want to be valued and appreciated for the person I am. For example, I like having a bunch of chunks of personal time for my quirky and creative activities. At the same time, I would like help for some of my issues such as executive functioning. I wish we had our own volunteer organizations where we vetted volunteers on such issues as criminal background and then a volunteer could respectfully help me on such issues as health insurance. And I'd really like if we ran our own employment agencies and maybe even started businesses. Even though 8 out of 10 new businesses go bankrupt. Yes, that is what I've read is the baseline statistic. And I also like the idea of us continuing with political activism, for those of us who this appeals to. It's an option, not a requirement.
I wish there were organizations like this. To the best of my knowledge, there are not. Maybe in the UK, but I even doubt it there, might be a little early.
| Similar Topics | |
|---|---|
| Questions about the terms Neurodiversity uses |
02 Mar 2024, 7:24 am |
| Neurodiversity affirming practice and mental health |
04 Mar 2024, 10:43 am |
