Alcohol and Substance Abuse Counselling Thread

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staremaster
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22 Oct 2017, 12:34 pm

I've been drinking heavily lately. DTs are no joke. I can't imagine quitting, but sometimes I'll think to myself: "wait, I like beer, why am I slamming it down my throat so I can't even taste it?"



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04 Dec 2017, 9:05 am

leejosepho wrote:
That is only a small part of the problem where the actual problem is the lack of satisfactions and fulfillments of our natural human instincts, needs, desires, ambitions and so on...and there is where taking the Twelve Steps to grow into spiritual fellowship with others like myself -- living, practicing and experiencing altruism -- made the difference for me.

Very true. But the 12 Steps didn't work for me, with the thinly-veiled Christianity and the fair-weather attitudes and popularity contests and cliques of the other people. Plus I'm not entirely sure I agree with the "disease model" as it can rob an alcoholic of the prospect of recovery and / or negate responsibility - aka "I'll never get better, I'm diseased," or "it's not my fault, it's a disease, you wouldn't blame someone with diabetes for having high blood sugar!" etc etc.
They had it right that there needs to be a spiritual component - it just does not follow that it must be the Christian monotheistic god nor that you have to "hand over" your life to anything. And I know they will always tell you that "higher power" can be anything, but when you actually try to apply that to the steps, it falls flat.


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leejosepho
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04 Dec 2017, 9:38 am

C2V wrote:
...the 12 Steps didn't work for me...

That is not possible, but I understand why you say that since today's AA falls so horribly short of the original A.A. The original A.A. never apologized for having adopted "a simple religious idea [Step Three] and a practical program of action [Steps Four through Nine]" (page 9) from the field of religion (see Forewords to "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions"), it did not include "fair-weather attitudes and popularity contests and cliques of the other people" or the so-called "disease model", and it never shared anything even close to any kind of idea that "God" might be anyone other than our Maker.


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04 Dec 2017, 9:46 am

C2V wrote:
...the 12 Steps didn't work for me...

That is not possible, but I do understand why you say that since today's AA falls so horribly short of the original A.A. The original A.A. never apologized for having adopted "a simple religious idea [Step Three] and a practical program of action [Steps Four through Nine]" (page 9) from the field of religion (see Forewords to "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions"), it did not include "fair-weather attitudes and popularity contests and cliques of the other people" or the so-called "disease model", and it never shared anything even close to any kind of idea that "God" might be anyone other than our Maker. "Instead we let Him demonstrate, through us, what He can do." (page 68)

C2V wrote:
They had it right that there needs to be a spiritual component - it just does not follow that it must be the Christian monotheistic god nor that you have to "hand over" your life to anything.

Please do let me know if/when you or anyone else might ever find anything else that might actually work for a real alcoholic such as myself! ;)

"(a) ...we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives [out of our messes].
"(b) ...no human power could have relieved [the chronic nature of] our alcoholism." (page 60)


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04 Dec 2017, 8:48 pm

leejosepho wrote:
C2V wrote:
...the 12 Steps didn't work for me...

That is not possible, but I understand why you say that since today's AA falls so horribly short of the original A.A. The original A.A. never apologized for having adopted "a simple religious idea [Step Three] and a practical program of action [Steps Four through Nine]" (page 9) from the field of religion (see Forewords to "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions"), it did not include "fair-weather attitudes and popularity contests and cliques of the other people" or the so-called "disease model", and it never shared anything even close to any kind of idea that "God" might be anyone other than our Maker. "Instead we let Him demonstrate, through us, what He can do." (page 68)

Um ... yes, it is possible. Not every approach will work for every person, alcoholic or not. Claiming that the 12 Step program will categorically cure every single person of their addiction regardless of individual circumstances seems a bit ... dogmatic. Quoting AA literature just furthers that. I don't know much about the original ideals of AA, as I was of course only involved with the contemporary group, but it does seem to have degenerated from the looser principles of the original group and become a very bogged-down institution. And yes, one might expect that of a group of people with severe problems, but the original folks would have had these problems, too.
But the god comment is indicative of exactly what I mean. Some people do not believe in god and have no wish to start. At least, don't believe in god in the Christian monotheistic sense of some kind of conscious, omnipotent being who can control our lives. In order to follow the spiritual principles of AA, a belief in this monotheistic god being who controls your actions is mandatory, no matter what they say. Unfortunately, this is not just the work of the contemporary group. The overwhelming saturation of god-talk was present in the original idea. It evolved out of a Christian group after all.
leejosepho wrote:
Please do let me know if/when you or anyone else might ever find anything else that might actually work for a real alcoholic such as myself! ;)

"(a) ...we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives [out of our messes].
"(b) ...no human power could have relieved [the chronic nature of] our alcoholism." (page 60)

Well, I'm a Buddhist, and that was what I returned to when I sobered up. I went to a recovery group run by a Buddhist teacher, who had once been an addict too, and began to actively practice my own religion again. That was two and a half years ago and I haven't had a drink since. In that time I also stopped with the morphine and benzos. It is possible, under our own human power. Alcoholism is a complex and difficult problem, but to claim the ONLY way out of it is religious conversion to Christianity I think is a bad idea. It will communicate to people who may be atheists, or agnostics, or even Buddhists and Pagans and so on, that they are done for because they cannot covert to believe in god. And to believe that you're not a "real alcoholic" unless the only thing that could help you was a belief in god also does disservice to those with different beliefs. Because trust me, I was a "real" alcoholic. I got the death speech - a doctor holding a test result and telling me with the rate of organ failure, I didn't have long to live if I couldn't stop. And I did so, without any gods working through me. Quoting the AA interpretation of the problem doesn't make it a stand-alone fact after all. That was just their interpretation, the way they saw things. And they are of course welcome to that interpretation - everyone has to handle it in their own way. AA certainly is a way, but not the only way is my point.


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leejosepho
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04 Dec 2017, 9:18 pm

C2V wrote:
Claiming that the 12 Step program will categorically cure every single person of their addiction regardless of individual circumstances seems a bit ... dogmatic...

...but I had not said that. I am only saying it never fails the individual who truly gives it an honest shot in its original format.

C2V wrote:
Some people do not believe in god and have no wish to start...

...and to that, A.A. says this: "If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience...be friendly. Let it go at that." (page 95)

C2V wrote:
I went to a recovery group...haven't had a drink since... It is possible, under our own human power.

Not for me, and to claim otherwise for everyone would be just as dogmatic as you have mistakenly alleged above.

C2V wrote:
...to believe you're not a "real alcoholic" unless the only thing that could help you was a belief in god also does disservice to those with different beliefs.

Again, that is not what I have shared. I am only saying there was no other way for me and that the Steps never fail any real alcoholic who can and will "completely give himself or herself to this simple program."


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05 Dec 2017, 12:23 am

leejosepho wrote:
C2V wrote:
Claiming that the 12 Step program will categorically cure every single person of their addiction regardless of individual circumstances seems a bit ... dogmatic...

...but I had not said that. I am only saying it never fails the individual who truly gives it an honest shot in its original format.

You did note it's not possible that it would not work if tried. Ergo it works for everyone. I don't believe that to be the case, but that's my opinion.
leejosepho wrote:
C2V wrote:
Some people do not believe in god and have no wish to start...

...and to that, A.A. says this: "If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience...be friendly. Let it go at that." (page 95)

See that seems sensible enough - and perhaps it is just the contemporary group's changes, but once one began practicing the steps, it became impossible to do as suggested without believing in that concept of god in my experience of it.
leejosepho wrote:
C2V wrote:
I went to a recovery group...haven't had a drink since... It is possible, under our own human power.

Not for me, and to claim otherwise for everyone would be just as dogmatic as you have mistakenly alleged above.

I think this might be a bit of a vocabulary problem. Noting that I believe it to be possible under our own human power, based on my own example, isn't dogmatic, as I'm not claiming that it will be possible for everyone - just that I found it to be possible for me without the intervention of god. Something that AA literature claims to be impossible for everyone as far as I was aware of my experience with their steps.
If it wasn't possible for you to kick the habit without belief that a god intervened on your behalf, I'm certainly not going to be one to gainsay or argue with that. In my opinion whatever it takes to get an alcoholic to stop doing this to themselves is a good thing, in whatever form that takes. My point is just that for some people, this approach does not work, and other approaches can work. Something that AA literature denies being possible as far as I was aware.
leejosepho wrote:
C2V wrote:
...to believe you're not a "real alcoholic" unless the only thing that could help you was a belief in god also does disservice to those with different beliefs.

Again, that is not what I have shared. I am only saying there was no other way for me and that the Steps never fail any real alcoholic who can and will "completely give himself or herself to this simple program."

Again possibly a word choice issue. Again if there was no other way for you that's fair enough, and if AA Steps works for you then that's definitely all the better - but again, there are cases of very real alcoholics for whom the steps do not work, no matter how much they wished they did. I was one of those people. Luckily for me I was able to find an alternative way that did work, but it was not within a 12 step or divine-intervention model.


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leejosepho
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05 Dec 2017, 8:46 am

C2V wrote:
...once one began practicing the steps, it became impossible to do as suggested without believing in that concept of god in my experience of it.

Such belief is never actually required of anyone, but yes, that is where anyone who actually takes the Steps will eventually land...

"So, practicing these Steps, we had a spiritual awakening about which finally there was no question...we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn’t got the 'spiritual angle,' and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name." (12 & 12, Step Twelve)

C2V wrote:
...there are cases of very real alcoholics for whom the steps do not work, no matter how much they wished they did. I was one of those people.

That is just not true. You might have found some or all of the Steps undesirable or objectionable for one reason or another or maybe you had expected to be able to mold them into something other than what they actually are and still get a comparable result, but none of that would ever prove the Steps in their original form could/would not ever actually work for you just as for me or for anyone else.


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05 Dec 2017, 8:59 am

leejosepho wrote:
C2V wrote:
...once one began practicing the steps, it became impossible to do as suggested without believing in that concept of god in my experience of it.

Such belief is never actually required of anyone, but yes, that is where anyone who actually takes the Steps will eventually land...

"So, practicing these Steps, we had a spiritual awakening about which finally there was no question...we could predict that the doubter who still claimed that he hadn’t got the 'spiritual angle,' and who still considered his well-loved A.A. group the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name." (12 & 12, Step Twelve)

C2V wrote:
...there are cases of very real alcoholics for whom the steps do not work, no matter how much they wished they did. I was one of those people.

That is just not true. You might have found some or all of the Steps undesirable or objectionable for one reason or another or maybe you had expected to be able to mold them into something other than what they actually are and still get a comparable result, but none of that would ever prove the Steps in their original form could/would not ever actually work for you just as for me or for anyone else.

Well sir, if you really cannot think in any other way or consider another point of view, I think we'll cordially agree to disagree. :)
In one way you might be right - if following the steps to the letter DOES require that one believe in the Christian god to work correctly, then I never got there. It seems contradictory to claim in one paragraph that the belief is never required of anyone and then to admit they actually intend to convert you to Christianity the whole time - but as I noted, it's great it works for some people who do believe in this god. If it gets them off alcohol, so much the better.
The rest of my own view on this isn't possible to understand it seems if you're sticking that close to the AA belief.


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leejosepho
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05 Dec 2017, 9:11 am

C2V wrote:
It seems contradictory to claim in one paragraph that the belief is never required of anyone and then to admit they actually intend to convert you to Christianity...

There is nothing to "admit" there since there was never any intent to convert anyone to anything...and there is where many people do not comprehend the "attraction rather than promotion" element of the original A.A. Rather than presuming to tell anyone else what s/he must do, A.A. is only about "We shall tell you what we have done" and then allowing others decide for themselves about whether to walk the identical path headed in its single destination.

C2V wrote:
The rest of my own view on this isn't possible to understand it seems...

If you are willing to try, please give me an opportunity to show that I actually do understand!


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06 May 2018, 9:00 pm

I posted a poll and asked if anyone had thoughts on autism and substance abuse, why I couldn't find any mention of it on here, if it was a banned topic, and that I thought it would be a popular topic. I'm going to go back and try to edit it to say something a bit different. I did notice that the first post on this thread only mentioned alcohol. Drug use was mentioned later on, as something to avoid. So again, I just noticed this thread so don't rag on me for the post I made. Thanks.



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06 May 2018, 9:32 pm

magicrabbit wrote:
I posted a poll and asked if anyone had thoughts on autism and substance abuse...a banned topic...

I'm going to go back and try to edit it to say something a bit different...

I was not aware of any such ban, but I can understand why autism and so-called "substance abuse" -- like pouring booze down a drain? -- have virtually nothing in common.

I happen to be an Aspie who happens to be an alcoholic, but my autism had/has nothing whatsoever to do with why I drank while sober or why I had no control over my drinking while drinking. I had no control over my drinking while drinking because of my abnormal body chemistry that cannot metabolize alcohol fast enough to keep the alcohol from setting off convulsions of the elbow -- each drink taken demands more alcohol -- and I could not live without drinking at all because I had yet to be shown how to live and cope with the reality of my life as it was. Some folks might try to say my autism might have had something to do with that second part, but it did not. I have been a member of A.A. for well over 30 years and I have never seen any unusual ratio there between autistics and neurotypicals.


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12 Jun 2018, 8:44 am

tfw u resort to mouthwash when u cant afford alcohol to drown your sorrows. on a serious note tho what can u resort to if ur doc wont give u anything. exercise is actually bad for my body because im slightly malnourished, and most meditation techniques dont really work for me, so im just filling my time with gaming and even then i get bored after a while



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15 Jun 2018, 3:54 am

Scorpius14 wrote:
tfw u resort to mouthwash when u cant afford alcohol to drown your sorrows. on a serious note tho what can u resort to if ur doc wont give u anything. exercise is actually bad for my body because im slightly malnourished, and most meditation techniques dont really work for me, so im just filling my time with gaming and even then i get bored after a while

I've resorted to drinking mouthwash before. Nasty stuff.


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12 Jul 2018, 9:45 am

or i might take up vaping, see what the buzz is about with nicotine and see whether or not it can help with my sudden depressive episodes i've been having these past few days, don't want to resort to sneaking a fag from my relatives handbag and havin a smoke when they're not around, plus many more harmful chemicals that go with it



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22 Dec 2020, 4:33 am

My Dad is a borderline alcoholic and he's one of the nicest people. A lot of people drink to escape reality and that's okay.

I'm almost teetotal myself, though. Always have been since a relatively short binge drinking streak from ages 18-20 where I couldn't help but abuse it.

I've barely drank alcohol since.