Asperger's Syndrome v Neurotypicals on internet forums

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Yigeren
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29 Apr 2016, 11:40 pm

@ dianthus

That's really interesting. You made some good points, and I agree with a lot of what you said. There are some things you wrote which seem obvious to me now after reading them, but I wasn't necessarily consciously aware of them before. Thank you :)



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30 Apr 2016, 12:04 am

I have gotten bad reactions from both ends so I don't think NT and ASDs are any different. We're all human and we're all capable of anything like ignorance, getting upset, not accepting a view point, feeling threatened, mistaking me as a troll, thinking I am slow or stupid or retarded and I have gotten rude comments from both aspies and NTs and been ignored and dumped by both. I have also had my comments removed too. I swear that on some places instead of banning you, they will just remove your comments instead. I have only had that happen on one forum. Then on another forum I made a post and it never got approved but I guess they didn't find my comment relevant since it was in a section where all comments get approved first before they show to the public. And I will be misunderstood from either party.


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hmk66
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30 Apr 2016, 2:49 am

I sometimes have problems on one forum as well (and no problems on other forums). If it is about politics, such as Russia politics and prostitution you will have opposing views. The difference is that the moderators of that forum don't base their banning and moderating politics on their opinion about the subject, only if forum rules have been violated. It is an NT-run forum, but I know there are other autistics as well, percentually maybe more than in real life.

There are several questionable debating techniques that I catch the other forum members at.
- Ad hominem. "What the heck do you know about that subject, you stupid? Oh... it is your autism, no wonder that you reason that way!";
- Selective reading. It is not always a matter of black and white. My view is mainly opposed to that of others, but there is some truth in what others are saying. I say: "It is true that... I cannot deny that. There is some evidence." Later on they deny that I have written that;
- Ridiculizing evidence. I make a statement about something. Others say: "Oh.. that is not true. Hahaha, and you believe that s**t, because it is only in your advantage!" They themselves don't come with links;
- Missing Theory of Mind. Let's give an example. I don't like being a road worker, working on a road. But there are road workers that enjoy their job. That I don't like to be a road worker, doesn't mean that they dislike their job, or that they feel being enslaved to do that job;
- Ignoring scientific evidence. There are two opinions. I back my opinion with evidence to facts. Others try to do that as well. For simple cases which could justify their opinions, there can be links to experiences from people, and that can very well be true. I look at all evidences and experiences of others. They only believe their examples and ridiculize my evidences coming from professors, doctors, anthropologists, etc.;
- Calling the kettle black. People accuse me from selective reading, although I clearly notice that they read selectively as well.



hmk66
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30 Apr 2016, 4:10 am

I found an interesting video about fallacies in discussing or reasoning techniques. It is slightly off-topic since it doesn't refer to internet forums and how autistics experience them.

It is about fallacies themselves. In this video the voice over man catches Donald Trump at making fallacies. He explains several types of fallacies and why they are categorized that way:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W68US34BqKw

It is not just the forums where these things happen. They also happen in Facebook, Twitter and YouTube discussions.



Yigeren
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30 Apr 2016, 4:49 am

Yes, logical fallacies are common. I think everyone should have to take a logic class in high school so that they at least can't claim ignorance when they use them.



josh338
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30 Apr 2016, 8:30 am

Yigeren wrote:
josh338 wrote:
Well, I admit I could have done a better job of disagreeing, in that I could have buttered her up first (that's a really interesting post and I agree with most of what you say, but are you sure that . . . ). But I think there are some people who will just go nuts no matter what.


I really hate having to "butter people up." I like to just state my opinion. If I have to go out of my way to ensure that someone won't get angry, it's like having to "handle" someone. It's like manipulation to me.

If I know that my words could be taken the wrong way, I make sure to phrase them differently so that there will be no confusion. I can read through my posts and usually recognize when something may be interpreted the wrong way, so I then fix it. That I don't mind doing, because it's allowing for clearer communication.

Or I'll try to be more diplomatic, especially when discussing sensitive topics. But I still try to be as straightforward as possible. Anything else feels like lying.

Yes, the problem I have is that I hate to lie and even not saying what I believe feels like lying. But I got into too many food fights on Usenet and it was really draining on non-moderated sites because people would go way too far. It still happens to me sometimes, as when I was attacked the other day, but at least moderation keeps things from getting out of hand.

Maybe we're too honest but there are some people who have the opposite problem, they take the mildest disagreement as a personal attack. And when people like us meet people like them, sparks fly.



TentofMot
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30 Apr 2016, 8:43 am

I think what you describe does occur on most all forums, NT and ASD.

But its mostly related to 'group think', that is the particular group's dominant opinion.

It could be trolling, if done just to rile up the members. That depends the nature of the forum, who is doing it, how often, etc. Judgement call.

I do think an Aspie may find themselves on the opposite side from the majority, or at least questioning it, more often then NTs. That might be due to some tendency to see things from a different perspective ('Outside the box').



naturalplastic
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30 Apr 2016, 9:05 am

Some issues are close to people's hearts and identities. So encroaching on those particular issues raises hackles.

This applies to both NTs and ASD folks. Just take a glance at the PPR forum any time.


But some folks are oblivious to that fact and treat every discussion like a sterile and refereed tournament in a debate club. Such folks expect others to be a 1000 percent logical in responding to them a 100 percent of the time, and to never take anything personally. Those folks are (a) extremely naive, (b) destined to get the crap beaten out of them by crowds of either NTs and/or ASDs, and (c) MY MAIN POINT - do tend to be on ASD spectrum (or atleast have alot autistic style in their thinking).

The folks on the dishing out end of the common group abuse of individuals who are terminally logical are of every stripe (NT or ASD). But the terminally logical who are on the receiving end of the group abuse are probably indeed (more often than not) aspies/auties.



josh338
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30 Apr 2016, 10:26 am

Yigeren wrote:
Yes, logical fallacies are common. I think everyone should have to take a logic class in high school so that they at least can't claim ignorance when they use them.

Amen to that. I get so tired of having to point them out.



hmk66
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30 Apr 2016, 11:07 am

In the Netherlands, prostitution is a hot item. Related to forced prostitution or human trafficking there are many strawman arguments.
The statement is: "All prostitutes are coerced, trafficked to do their job."
Their false argument (c.q. strawman): "Every prostitute I met, told me, that she was forced." Because they spoke with 10 or so prostitutes that were human-trafficked, and none who is not, doesn't mean that every prostitute is trafficked. 10 trafficked prostitutes is not representative for tens of thousands of prostitutes that are in the Netherlands.

There are more examples of fallacies when it comes to prostitution in the Netherlands, and what kind of tricks the district attorneys (Officier van Justitie) and the Dutch politicians use while they are debating about this subject.

Analogous to the strawman example (as far as I understand the strawman fallacy). On a forum about relationships there are many topics about problems in the relationships that people in it may experience. If there are even a thousand of these topics, does that mean that in every relationship are troubles? There is a reason to answer that question with "no". Couples who have no problems in their relationship won't start a topic about it on an internet forum.



josh338
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30 Apr 2016, 6:04 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Some issues are close to people's hearts and identities. So encroaching on those particular issues raises hackles.

This applies to both NTs and ASD folks. Just take a glance at the PPR forum any time.


But some folks are oblivious to that fact and treat every discussion like a sterile and refereed tournament in a debate club. Such folks expect others to be a 1000 percent logical in responding to them a 100 percent of the time, and to never take anything personally. Those folks are (a) extremely naive, (b) destined to get the crap beaten out of them by crowds of either NTs and/or ASDs, and (c) MY MAIN POINT - do tend to be on ASD spectrum (or atleast have alot autistic style in their thinking).

The folks on the dishing out end of the common group abuse of individuals who are terminally logical are of every stripe (NT or ASD). But the terminally logical who are on the receiving end of the group abuse are probably indeed (more often than not) aspies/auties.

Well, yeah. But I can't help but think that truth matters. I'm less likely to try to speak it now and I think that's a shame. I mean, if some 60-year-old crows that her friends say she looks like 50, I'll be contemptuous inside but there's no reason to say something that hurts her feelings. (I just saw such a conversation, and someone did point out, not directly to her, that in such cases friends are probably being kind.) But what if someone says something that's wrong, and it matters? I don't really want to mention issues here since I don't want to risk starting an off-topic political debate, but suffice it to say that I see people of all political stripes saying things that IMO are contrafactual and it's very hard for me not to respond.



spinelli
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30 Apr 2016, 7:48 pm

I fall out of favor of the group mind all the time . I used to post on numerous about com forums and saw that behavior.



hmk66
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01 May 2016, 1:18 am

TentofMot wrote:
I think what you describe does occur on most all forums, NT and ASD.

But its mostly related to 'group think', that is the particular group's dominant opinion.

I often don't want to be a part of groupthink. Sometimes I seem to be a part of groupthink, but that is not because I want that, but because I happen to have the same opinion as the other members of the group, I and others are accused to be in. My opinion is solid and won't change, unless I am convinced I was wrong; then I will change it after looking at new facts I wasn't aware of before.

Quote:
I do think an Aspie may find themselves on the opposite side from the majority, or at least questioning it, more often then NTs. That might be due to some tendency to see things from a different perspective ('Outside the box').

It maybe because the Aspie has sources to base his opinion on and question other sources. He may have a valid reason to question others. The group he is opposing, may have other opinions, but both parties are entitled to have their own opinions. Therefore moderators should be independent and that no opinion is more than any other. It would otherwise make me think of the famous Animal Farm saying: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

Sometimes the Aspie seems to win a discussion (because he has very strong arguments based on facts) and others may be threatened by him for whatever reason. Well, it is not about winning a discussion but what the truth is.



Dhume
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01 May 2016, 3:25 pm

Yes. My posts on Yahoo get a lot of negative reaction and personal attacks. I posted this one three times; regarding transgender bull and they would not publish it? don't know why?

"Hold on boys, girls and others. This the land of the free. Where bad laws result in tea in the harbor. Break the law. Pee where you will. GOd bless America."

I am just starting to realize about being different. I never heard on NT or ASD until yesterday. I learned because I was researching dyslexia to see if it was related to autism. For sure I have dyslexia and suspected something else because I have trouble with facial recognition. This site has helped.



animalcrackers
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09 May 2016, 8:22 pm

Yigeren wrote:
"Arguing" in the sense of being argumentative, trying to start a verbal altercation. Debating to me is more like a rational discussion.


Thank you for the explanation.

I always thought of "argument", "argue" and "arguing" as neutral words that could go either way with connotations.


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sonicallysensitive
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09 May 2016, 9:51 pm

It happened here to me here on a thread a while back (a 'self-diagnosis' thread).

I was discussing the definitions of certain terms/words and the debate became something of a gang-up.

It still happens to this day - sometimes when an alternate opinion or specifics RE definitions is raised (imagine it: autistics looking for specifics) the same voices rise in defense of 'freedom of speech'.

Rather than seeing this a a subtle hint where others wonder who is being referred to (what I'd define as cowardice) I refer specifically to B19, kraftie, and the Utah user person (can't remember his full username). And that's not naming/shaming - you can find the thread and read through it for yourself if you wish.

So - no, it doesn't just happen on NT forums. It happens here.


You'll find out for yourself soon enough, I'm sure.

The trouble with a site such as this (actually, any internet site) is no screening. Anyone could post here claiming to be autistic when the majority may in fact be NT's who have read a list of symptoms online, and have read through other threads here and cherry-picked what sounds useful to them for the creation of a persona.


In short - there is no quality control - and there never can be.


What I mean is - this site could be just as NT as the NT sites you allude to (again - there's no way of proving/disproving this - which is the very problem). 90% of the opinions here could be NT opinion.

But the site owners won't state this, as greater numbers = greater revenue from ads.



(Then again, I'm probably a troll who is only trying to stir up trouble & dissent.)


PS Alex what has happened to the site? There are nightly spams, and when replies are typed up, many here are redirected to some 'prove you're not a robot' page, after which the original message is lost. I have to ctrl-A/ctrl-C everything I write now.