Hey kids: Don't be a sucker for socialism

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Fnord
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01 Mar 2019, 9:59 am

Dylanperr wrote:

What about socialism do you say is bad. I know communism was bad but why socialism?

Because, in order to impose Socialism on a previously Capitalist state, the government must first take ownership of all major industries -- by force, if necessary -- and once all of that wealth and power is in the hands of the government, it stays there. Every Socialist leader does this by first promising to spread the wealth among the people, gaining their support, and then keeping the wealth for themselves after the revolution is over -- Castro, Chavez, Lenin, Mao ...

RushKing
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01 Mar 2019, 6:46 pm

Fnord; like Lenin and his followers, is wrong.

Socialism and Communism need to be bottom up processes to work. The proletariat needs to take leadership and control over industry, not the government.

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01 Mar 2019, 6:53 pm

Fnord wrote:

Dylanperr wrote:

What about socialism do you say is bad. I know communism was bad but why socialism?

Authoritarian socialism is coercion/force it looks like.

Fnord
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02 Mar 2019, 12:10 pm

Dylanperr wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Dylanperr wrote:

What about socialism do you say is bad. I know communism was bad but why socialism?

Authoritarian socialism is coercion/force it looks like.

Socialism cannot be enforced without Totalitarianism.

RushKing
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02 Mar 2019, 12:35 pm

Fnord wrote:

Socialism cannot be enforced without Totalitarianism.

You consider workplace democracy, totalitarianism?

Fnord
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02 Mar 2019, 12:36 pm

RushKing wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Socialism cannot be enforced without Totalitarianism.

You consider workplace democracy, totalitarianism?

You consider reading meaning into my posts that isn't there?

RushKing
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02 Mar 2019, 12:58 pm

Fnord wrote:

You consider reading meaning into my posts that isn't there?

I just asked a question.

Many socialists (the libertarian left) are fighting for workplace democracy, and go as far as to define their socialism as worker ownership and self management.

Last edited by RushKing on 02 Mar 2019, 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

zcientist
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02 Mar 2019, 1:05 pm

Socialism is generally not successful because the state is always corrupted and the people are left with almost nothing and they lose freedoms they once enjoyed.

It's definitely working poorly in Venezuela when troops are shooting at people trying to provide aid to their country.

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RushKing
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02 Mar 2019, 1:28 pm

Crimadella
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02 Mar 2019, 2:02 pm

I really don't understand any of this. 'Any' group of people who demand to take control without debate are a form of dictators, as in they say how it operates and no one else has a say. Even if they do not consider themselves part of the government, they actually are a governing body which dictates how things will be ran, to achieve such you have to enforce it by means of force because people aren't just down for that, they wish to reserve the ability to debate to work things out, not for a group of people to step in and insist things operate the way they wish. Society does not work well with people shutting down debate and dictating policy.

Bataar
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04 Mar 2019, 4:17 pm

RushKing wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Socialism cannot be enforced without Totalitarianism.

You consider workplace democracy, totalitarianism?

Workplace democracy is capitalism.

Fnord
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04 Mar 2019, 4:28 pm

Bataar wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Socialism cannot be enforced without Totalitarianism.

You consider workplace democracy, totalitarianism?

Workplace democracy is capitalism.

Collective Bargaining is a method for exploiting the working class -- pay your dues to the union, or you don't work. And when the business gets sold or goes out of business, all those dues that you've paid out to the union come back in mere pennies on the dollar.

Unless the employees collectively own the business, and each employee has but one vote on how the business is run, and each vote has equal value, there is no true Democracy in the workplace. Even if all of these criteria are met, the goal of the business is to convert labor into profit -- a clear-cut Capitalistic practice.

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04 Mar 2019, 6:12 pm

Fnord wrote:

Bataar wrote:

RushKing wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Socialism cannot be enforced without Totalitarianism.

You consider workplace democracy, totalitarianism?

Workplace democracy is capitalism.

Employees are free to start their own business and run it as they see fit. Any number of people can pool their resources to start or buy a business. The employees can collectively come together under their own free choice to do this, hence capitalism.

RushKing
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04 Mar 2019, 6:27 pm

Fnord wrote:

Even if all of these criteria are met, the goal of the business is to convert labor into profit -- a clear-cut Capitalistic practice.

Production for market exchange alone doesn't define capitalism. Business also has to be privately owned. Worker cooperatives are collectively owned.

This would be an example of Market Socialism.

RushKing
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04 Mar 2019, 6:53 pm

Fnord wrote:

Why are you talking about trade unions?

The worker coop, eliminates the need for a trade union.

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04 Mar 2019, 7:10 pm

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