A Theory of Mind? Or A Theory of War....

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So you're saying that autistic people don't behave any differently from non-autistic people and anyone's declaration that they do means their theory is in some way flawed?

That's not what B19 is saying at all. The point is that these behaviours that SBC attributed to autism are not universal to everyone on the spectrum, and also that the behaviour that he observed he misattributed to lack of theory of mind when there could have been many explanations for the behaviour of those children that had nothing to do with theory of mind and everything to do with sensory issues or something else about autistic perception that SBC cannot understand from his own (apparently biased) NT perspective on autistic behaviour. He cannot imagine our mindset and how it may differ from his own, so he projects his own misunderstanding onto us and says we must behave the way we do because we don't understand that other people can have different mindsets and perspectives from our own, and misattributes our behaviour because of that misunderstanding and incorrect assumption of his own. The irony of it is staggering.

Thank you. Glad my post and links were educational for you.

With "lack of empathy in practice" what I trying to say is that when people read a statement "autistics lack empathy" if they assume the person saying that is saying that all autistics have no empathy and that makes autistics wrong or not fully human when what the person is saying is that impaired or delayed empathy is common enough in autistics to make it a diagnosable criteria and not neccasarly saying that makes the person lacking empathy flawed in a fundamental way. If a person interprets people saying Autistics lack empathy in very negative ways referred to above in this instance they might lack cognitive empathy.

Another possible example of lack of cognative empathy is the part of the blog I quoted where the blogger says she has felt when reading autistics have average or too much empathy that because she lacks empathy she is a "defective autistic". I said I related to a lot of her blog and I quoted that part because I related to that part of her blog the most. A major part my realizition I am on he spectrum was coming to an understanding that in certain areas I do lack empathy and that this has affected key turning points in my life. To be constantly told in effect the reason I linked Autism and empathy/TOM is because I am a victim of an ableist fraudster does feel invalidating to me

But I might be completly wrong about the motives behind most of the posters in these threads because I am lacking in cognitive empathy. But apprarently it is unreleted to my autism, just a charactor flaw.

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 02 Jul 2016, 6:16 pm, edited 5 times in total.

I think B19 made a most valid, illustrative point here.

Baron-Cohen has presented us with absurd anecdotes which do not reflect the reality of the autistic experience at all.

That IS a language problem. It's a language problem precisely because you didn't use language to solve it like expected. It's not just about the final sentence, but the process of arriving at the conclusion, and then actually voicing the conclusion. Regardless of whether you agree it's a language issue, it's still not because you lack theory of mind.

Other researchers have questioned exactly what SBC was actually measuring, because in all his experiments, some of the AS children pass the test, which calls into question the dogmatic claims for TOM as the defining characteristic of AS, and the perhaps more important question of what exactly SBC was measuring. This group of scientists has focused on the way that different basic levels of verbal skills and their applied functionality are the variables that bias SBC's methodology and the conclusion he chose to draw from it.

As far as I know, SBC has not yet addressed this.

Regarding whether or not autistic people lack empathy, empathy is a complex process, and can't really be quantified in such a way that it can be said that autistic people universally have a deficit in it. That being said, empathy is typically DISORDERED in autism, but autism itself is not fundementally an EMPATHY DISORDER.

I'm going to repost this link:

https://ballastexistenz.wordpress.com/2 ... yre-doing/

B19 posted it earlier but I wonder if you actually read it, Chichikov. I think if you actually read that link (which very clearly explains all the potential problems/circular reasoning in one of the tests SBC uses) you might have a better grasp of where we are coming from and why we are skeptical of SBC and his ability to produce legitimate and useful research about autism. Can you at least read it and point out what it is you disagree with and what it is about that test that you think is NOT a problem and why we should accept it (and SBC's subsequent claims about the autistic mind)? Because so far you have not done a very good job of laying out point-for-point why you believe SBC's tests are NOT based on circular reasoning and misattribution of autistic behaviours. If you could do that we might be able to have an actual discussion about why you support his research and we question it.

I have my doubts that Autism is fundematally any disorder. It is a spectrum condition whereby if you have most of the traits others on this spectrum typically have you should be labled or described autistic.

Autism is no one thing. That being said, many of the traits grouped under autism have absolutely nothing to do with empathy.

If you've met one person with Aspergers, you've met one person with Aspergers. Right? Or is that only right when not discussing SBC?



Yes, you're right. I've reconsidered and you know what? Autistic people are completely normal. There is nothing wrong with us at all, how we are even classified is a mystery. Anyone that says anything negative about autistic people are just evil individuals that deserve our chastisement.


Thank you very much for some link to some blog, it most certainly carries more weight that scientific research. Thank you for once again asserting that autistic people are completely normal. It's not that we're lacking, it's that we simply have too much of everything. We're not disabled, we're superheros.

Have you had bad experiences with autistic people?

Thank you for showing how freaking ignorant you are. Obviously you didn't actually read what the blog says, as no where does it imply autistic people are completely normal, quite the opposite actually. That also isn't just some random blog, it's Amanda Baggs blog. You obviously don't know who she is though, otherwise you wouldn't be saying so much sarcastic nonsense.

I am going to use my empathy and assume your intent was sarcasm. SBC fundematally agrees with this. Not literally in that all autistics are perfect but that core autistic traits are not wrong.


Off topic a but I enjoyed the section of the video where he mocks the DSM

The man agrees with the social model of disability and is against the idea of curing autism.

It's obvious from the way you write, there is more to atypical language than just delays. Anyway, the point is that you DON'T completely lack ToM, but people use the failing of the test as evidence that someone completely lacks ToM.