Shooting at LGBT nightclub in Florida, 20 injured

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ASPartOfMe
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17 Jun 2016, 1:58 pm

When 32 people were massacred at a gay bar in New Orleans in 1973 the reaction was very different then Orlando.

Before Orlando Shooting, an Anti-Gay Massacre in New Orleans Was Largely Forgotten

I was very much alive and did follow the news in 1973 and have no recollection of this event at all. The jokes and attitudes described I remember very well.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 17 Jun 2016, 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jrjones9933
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17 Jun 2016, 2:04 pm

Jacoby wrote:
If you were in that nightclub when it went down I bet you'd wish you had a gun to protect yourself.


Yeah, I would. You go stand under tall trees during storms, and I'll go to nightclubs without a gun.

Technically, I'd prefer to be the only one with a gun, but since I can't get everyone else to agree to that I'll take mostly no gun nightclubs.


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17 Jun 2016, 3:45 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:

Hillary gave a speech a secretary of state at the UN where she addressed leaders of countries actively persecuting gays and declared "Gay rights are human rights." Her entire speech was about embracing the LGBT community around the world.

It's been the democratic party leading the charge for gay rights and Republicans claimed that it was a sign that the traditional family values were crumbling. So if Hillary wins she'll have an army of people who support gay rights behind her. If Trump wins he'll have an entire army of republicans against gay rights.

He also didn't help himself when he congratulated himself for predicting it in a tweet.


The Clinton's were elected in 1992 to stop gay marriage and passed DOMA, Hillary was against gay marriage until she wasn't against when the political winds finally turned.





she's an "ally" only when it benefits her politically


Actually, only Bill Clinton had been elected, and it wasn't to stop gay marriage. And incidentally, his allies on the anti-gay marriage thing, as with NAFTA, were Republicans, not Democrats.


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TomS
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17 Jun 2016, 5:14 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
When 32 people were massacred at a gay bar in New Orleans in 1973 the reaction was very different then Orlando.

Before Orlando Shooting, an Anti-Gay Massacre in New Orleans Was Largely Forgotten

I was very much alive and did follow the news in 1973 and have no recollection of this event at all. The jokes and attitudes described I remember very well.


I saw that story too and do not remember knowing about it. Perhaps it was only reported locally.



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17 Jun 2016, 5:18 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Trump is building a coalition to win, that includes Christian pastors and the LGBT community. Maybe the 90s culture wars are something people care that much about anymore, it's about the future of this country than petty wedge social issues. Looking at Trump's life there is no way anybody can seriously call him racist or homophobic, he stuck his neck out there on transgender bathroom issue and the truth is if a few people in that club could of fired back then maybe far far fewer would of died and if the gunman didn't think that everyone disarmed he might not of even attacked. That nightclub is called a soft target, every 'no gun zone' is a soft target asking to get hit. We need to be able to protect ourselves, that is a fundamental right. Gay men in particular I think should take heed since SJWs are increasingly now saying they are among the privileged class as cis gay white men are no longer discriminated against apparently, that's how far they're taking their hatred of white men.


No, he's actually not "building" anything with LGBT people. In the rare times when he can be nailed down to something even approaching a position statement (remember he now says he's against them), he has repeatedly said that he would revert marriage equality back to a state decision, along with every other issue of equality for LGBT people. Also, I don't think you understand just how much harm those pastors have done, or how anyone who allies themself with them simply will not be trusted by LGBT people or our allies, friends and loved ones.

Regarding him not being racist or homophobic...that is flat out bizarre. Please, do google Trump and racist and read a few of the examples that pop up. People - voters - don't forget. Trump has lost any remnant of the non-white crowd the GOP was dysfunctionally trying to recover.

That's the opposite of coalition building.


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17 Jun 2016, 5:33 pm

Jacoby wrote:
[...] I think Trump is the only person that can accomplish any of this, Hillary will do nothing!


Clinton has already done actual, concrete actions to protect and ally herself with LGBT people.
She has spoken as a representative of the USA to the UN on behalf of LGBT people. In 2010, within her authority she changed regulations so that trans kids could get passports that match their names and gender. That was a big, big deal to those kids as it meant they could participate in extra-curricular activities without outing themselves as passports are used to prove citizenship. She's also pledged to sign ENDA or whatever bill may be the functional equivalent; Trump has repeatedly said it should be, "left up to the states" which is slightly veiled code for "they're never going to be granted legal equality on my watch". She has voted 'yes' to adding sexuality & gender identity to hate crime laws. Clinton has also voted 'no' on federal marriage equality bans, and has been seen walking in LGBT Pride parades. Oh, and she co-sponsored a bill providing benefits to domestic partners of Federal employees.

So.

What actual, concrete actions has Trump done for LGBT people, please?


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19 Jun 2016, 9:23 am

It's really strange, I can't seem to find any timeline of the shooting that actually describes who was shot when and where, or really much of how it went down. What I'd like to know is when most of the victims were shot, and whether most of the victims were killed outright or bled out due to delay in getting the SWAT team in there.


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TomS
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19 Jun 2016, 10:57 am

Dox47 wrote:
It's really strange, I can't seem to find any timeline of the shooting that actually describes who was shot when and where, or really much of how it went down. What I'd like to know is when most of the victims were shot, and whether most of the victims were killed outright or bled out due to delay in getting the SWAT team in there.


There is a basic timeline diagram here: http://media.philly.com/images/AP_Orlando-nightclub-diagram-Artboard_6.png



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19 Jun 2016, 12:56 pm

Dox47 wrote:
It's really strange, I can't seem to find any timeline of the shooting that actually describes who was shot when and where, or really much of how it went down. What I'd like to know is when most of the victims were shot, and whether most of the victims were killed outright or bled out due to delay in getting the SWAT team in there.

On a previous page on this thread I posted that 38 died at the scene, 9 died awaiting help / on way to hospital, and 2 were shot by LEOs. This link says the same thing, except it doesn't say that cops killed 2 people, but it says that 2 people were shot, outside (this is when they punched a hole in the wall, people ran outside to safety, Manteen ran with them, cops shot at Mateen):

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/diary-massacre-how-orlando-nightclub-shooting-unfolded-n590751

That link, above, also gives a pretty good diagram of the nightclub, and a TIMELINE----plus, a couple of eyewitness accounts.

This link is a more detailed version of the nightclub diagram that TomS posted (it gives a tiny bit of info / timeline):


http://interactives.ap.org/2016/orlando-shooting/

This last link is very good----very detailed TIMELINE----it even gives a breakdown of ethnicities killed, names, ages, and occupations of a few:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Orlando_nightclub_shooting

All sources seem to be saying that most were shot as soon as he walked-in the door, including the armed security guards (I think there were 3); the rest were shot in the bathrooms (except for the 2 who were shot, outside).



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19 Jun 2016, 4:25 pm

For anyone who's interested, here is the Facebook addy of the Orlando nightclub:

https://www.facebook.com/pulseorlando

If you can handle it, scroll-down to June 12th (I just figured-out, a few hours ago, that it's a palindrome - 6-12-16) to read everything as it happened. Don't forget that Fb does NOT reflect Daylight Savings Time----so, if it says 1:43AM, for instance, it was 2:43AM.

Also, here is the site address, for donations to the staff, who are now out of work:


http://www.pulseorlandoclub.com/



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19 Jun 2016, 5:08 pm

Here's another really good timeline with info. I haven't read / heard, anywhere----and, pictures we haven't seen (at least *I* haven't):

http://popwrapped.com/active-shooter-reported-pulse-orlando-nightclub/

Image



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19 Jun 2016, 9:33 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:

she's an "ally" only when it benefits her politically


Isn't that what a politician is supposed to do? Represent the people and what the people want?



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20 Jun 2016, 3:17 am

There was just a report on "America this Morning" (ABC) with a former teacher of the wife's, saying that the wife was a Special Ed. student and that there was NO WAY she could comprehend / know what he was thinking / planning.

I thought about the fact that alot of us were Special Ed students, and even though we might've been slow to put it together, we would've figured it out; but, I DO understand wanting not to believe that a loved one would ever do something like that, and dismissing it / pushing it to the back of one's mind.








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23 Jun 2016, 7:04 pm

It's not just about better detection or better access to care. You can improve those things all you want, you can even mandate screenings for everyone. Until there's access to better care and widespread de-stigmatization of mental illness, the problem is going to get worse, not better.

Similarly, making this about gun control is a gross oversimplification. People who want to commit crimes with guns don't give a crap about the law. For people with terroristic leanings especially, getting your hands on a firearm is always going to be painfully easy compared to learning not to act like that.

European gun laws didn't do the folks at Bataclan or Charlie Hebdo much good. They haven't protected a lot of French and German women, either.

I don't care much for guns. They frighten me. We don't own one. We're damn well going to, but we do not, and have not, because even a .22 scares the crap out of me. My kids have capguns... and no caps to go BANG in them. That's how much I like the damn things. We're going to have one anyway. Why?? Because society is going to s**t, human nature has always been s**t, and government on all levels has already demonstrated its inability to protect the populace from sh***y behavior. Ergo, it is incumbent upon us to protect each other and ourselves.

If it's going to come to that, I'd rather make it a firefight than a shooting range. I'm tired of feeling helpless, and apparently a lot of LGBTQ folks feel the same way.

At the end of the day, acceptance and tolerance have to be taught, and normalized, and that will result in less of this crap. But that's going to take a very, very, very long time. In the interim, I think it better for decent people to have some defensive capacity.


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23 Jun 2016, 7:10 pm

Also, please bear in mind that tolerance doesn't mean they like you, or are obligated to pretend they do. Tolerance doesn't mean not objecting to your lifestyle, or not saying things that upset you and hurt your feelings. It doesn't mean they can't preach that you're infidel, or hell bound and damned, or whatever other BS they want to spew. Tolerance means live and let live, in almost the strictest and most literal sense of the phrase (don't kill people or criminalize behavior that does not directly harm anyone else). And that's all it means.


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24 Jun 2016, 4:11 pm

BuyerBeware wrote:
Similarly, making this about gun control is a gross oversimplification. People who want to commit crimes with guns don't give a crap about the law. For people with terroristic leanings especially, getting your hands on a firearm is always going to be painfully easy compared to learning not to act like that.


No it is not an over simplification. If there are no guns, then the criminals could not get guns no matter what. If there were fewer guns, then it would be harder for criminals to get guns. Why do we need to make it as easy as possible for criminals to get guns?

The argument that we should have no gun control because criminals will still get guns is the single dumbest argument ever made in the history of humankind. By the same argument, we should have no laws against anything, because criminals don't obey the laws anyway. Either we do away with all of our laws, or stop making that argument agains gun control. Logical fallacies like that argument only go to show the lack of intelligent of pro gun people.


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