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Jensen
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30 Jun 2016, 5:30 am

I´ve always thought of myself as reasonably good at reading faces - and I think I am, as I note the smallest changes. The problem is, that I "think", I know, what is happening in people - and very often I do.....but most of the time, I can´t imagine why.

Situation: I ask about something - the other sneers at me and give half an answer. I think a lot about that and try to ask once more, but carefully - maybe too careful. Then the s**t hits the fan.
I have tried it so often - last time with my phys, who suddenly grew mad at me, it seems, when I asked for the meaning of one poisonous remark from his colleague, that have made me wonder for years, whether I was welcome in the clinic or not.
I´m never sure of that.

I have been there a lot of times in my life, because I grow too insecure over remarks, that may have been fired off in a moment of frustration. To me, however, it becomes a grave question, which I can´t let go.
I generally don´t understand, why it is so forbidden to ask in order to stop worrying.

Additional problem - I very often have difficulty understanding what is being said (no hearing impairment), -understanding the meaning. I might have missed much of what he said.
Sometimes i feel VERY handicapped and I am very down over the present situation now - insecure - afraid to meet him in the lobby. Total cramps.

Does this ring a bell somewhere?


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kraftiekortie
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30 Jun 2016, 7:37 am

Yep...it's hard for me to tell if someone is being serious when they make a crude remark--or if someone is merely in a bad mood.



Jensen
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30 Jun 2016, 10:58 am

Yeah, and it goes on and on in the poor head - while others might just toss it away and forget.
I just talked to another collegue of his. She said: He´s not mad at you.
I´ll probably never learn.


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Chickenbird
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30 Jun 2016, 8:02 pm

I'm in my fifties and worked out that I was probably aspie about 6 years ago. A couple of years ago, I spent some time with those things on line that help you read emotions and faces. Didn't really notice a huge difference but last week, something happened. I had a problem with someone I know and suddenly the scales fell from my eyes.....I have spent my whole life failing to detect CONTEMPT. I thought I had made someone angry, therefore, I could probably fix it by changing something, apologising, being nicer, etc.

But you can't change contempt, you can only "not be there". Genuine anger, you won't actually see all that often out there. Rage, yes, contempt, definitely. Anger and indignation are "clean" emotions (even if the person is mistaken in their beliefs) and quite rare.

This is big for me, I hope it helps you, too. Look up how to read contempt. It is the only emotion that is asymmetrical, it shows with a little smile or twitch on one side of the face only, while the other side looks unhappy.


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ToughDiamond
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30 Jun 2016, 10:54 pm

These remarks from your - healthcare providers? seem quite baffling and perplexing to me. Without more details I can't be sure what's going on, but I suspect you may be wrong to see yourself as to blame for those communication failures. Could it simply be that they are acting like jerks? If you're just asking civil questions of professionals who know your condition and are (presumably) equipped to communicate well with you, I don't see why they have to lose patience and give you cryptic answers at best and unbridled anger at worst. I just find it really weird, because if somebody asks me a sincere question, I don't get angry, even if it's an awkward question, I just do my best to give them a sincere, clear answer. Occasionally I come across people who act weird when I ask them things, and they make replies like "if you don't know, I'm not going to tell you," and I just conclude that I've happened upon an unhelpful individual or somebody who's having a bad day and can't remain civil. Or have I completely got the wrong end of the stick here?



Jensen
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01 Jul 2016, 2:49 am

Chickenbird wrote:
I'm in my fifties and worked out that I was probably aspie about 6 years ago. .I have spent my whole life failing to detect CONTEMPT. I thought I had made someone angry, therefore, I could probably fix it by changing something, apologising, being nicer, etc.

But you can't change contempt, you can only "not be there". Genuine anger, you won't actually see all that often out there. Rage, yes, contempt, definitely. Anger and indignation are "clean" emotions (even if the person is mistaken in their beliefs) and quite rare.
Look up how to read contempt. It is the only emotion that is asymmetrical, it shows with a little smile or twitch on one side of the face only, while the other side looks unhappy.


Man, do I know this!


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SocOfAutism
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01 Jul 2016, 12:14 pm

Chickenbird wrote:
I'm in my fifties and worked out that I was probably aspie about 6 years ago. A couple of years ago, I spent some time with those things on line that help you read emotions and faces. Didn't really notice a huge difference but last week, something happened. I had a problem with someone I know and suddenly the scales fell from my eyes.....I have spent my whole life failing to detect CONTEMPT. I thought I had made someone angry, therefore, I could probably fix it by changing something, apologising, being nicer, etc.

But you can't change contempt, you can only "not be there". Genuine anger, you won't actually see all that often out there. Rage, yes, contempt, definitely. Anger and indignation are "clean" emotions (even if the person is mistaken in their beliefs) and quite rare.

This is big for me, I hope it helps you, too. Look up how to read contempt. It is the only emotion that is asymmetrical, it shows with a little smile or twitch on one side of the face only, while the other side looks unhappy.


Contempt...hm...

So I have been wondering if failing to catch some things like this have been working AGAINST or FOR autistic adults.

The reason I'm wondering this is because I, myself, easily catch subtleties in others, even to the point where I can't get others to see what I'm talking about. I'm NT, but maybe more NT than most people. Okay, so when I notice some things, such as contempt, a way I will deal with it is pretend that I don't get it. I recognize that the other person is being aggressive and trying to engage me in a negative way, so I will purposefully ignore it and continue being polite. It often diffuses the situation. They'll target someone else. I would say the only benefit to me knowing it's happening is that I can extricate myself from them while appearing to have a positive relationship with them.

Maybe TRULY not getting some of the negative subtle signals is also diffusing things to a degree and will eventually move you out of being a negative person's target.



Chickenbird
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01 Jul 2016, 3:58 pm

SocOfAutism wrote:
Chickenbird wrote:
I'm in my fifties and worked out that I was probably aspie about 6 years ago. A couple of years ago, I spent some time with those things on line that help you read emotions and faces. Didn't really notice a huge difference but last week, something happened. I had a problem with someone I know and suddenly the scales fell from my eyes.....I have spent my whole life failing to detect CONTEMPT. I thought I had made someone angry, therefore, I could probably fix it by changing something, apologising, being nicer, etc.

But you can't change contempt, you can only "not be there". Genuine anger, you won't actually see all that often out there. Rage, yes, contempt, definitely. Anger and indignation are "clean" emotions (even if the person is mistaken in their beliefs) and quite rare.

This is big for me, I hope it helps you, too. Look up how to read contempt. It is the only emotion that is asymmetrical, it shows with a little smile or twitch on one side of the face only, while the other side looks unhappy.


Contempt...hm...

So I have been wondering if failing to catch some things like this have been working AGAINST or FOR autistic adults.

The reason I'm wondering this is because I, myself, easily catch subtleties in others, even to the point where I can't get others to see what I'm talking about. I'm NT, but maybe more NT than most people. Okay, so when I notice some things, such as contempt, a way I will deal with it is pretend that I don't get it. I recognize that the other person is being aggressive and trying to engage me in a negative way, so I will purposefully ignore it and continue being polite. It often diffuses the situation. They'll target someone else. I would say the only benefit to me knowing it's happening is that I can extricate myself from them while appearing to have a positive relationship with them.

Maybe TRULY not getting some of the negative subtle signals is also diffusing things to a degree and will eventually move you out of being a negative person's target.


I like what you said very much, exactly, and I so wish the very last part could be true. Deliberately ignoring it and being very polite should help, as it shows spirit, but failing to even see it will probably do the opposite, as we tend to hate those we hurt. "I have contempt for you, you don't notice, I see you as even more contemptible. Now I also feel guilt, and see you as the cause, and it increases my dislike."

Anger tends to fade; contempt seems to only increase because it has twisted motivations. People feel worse when the object of their contempt is removed by death or relocation, because then their bad feelings have nowhere to go, which explains why your family can have contempt for you, but still keep phoning and trying to see you. (Probably sounds incredible if you aren't from that kind of background.)


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You are very likely neurotypical"
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SocOfAutism
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02 Jul 2016, 11:53 am

Chickenbird wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
Chickenbird wrote:
I'm in my fifties and worked out that I was probably aspie about 6 years ago. A couple of years ago, I spent some time with those things on line that help you read emotions and faces. Didn't really notice a huge difference but last week, something happened. I had a problem with someone I know and suddenly the scales fell from my eyes.....I have spent my whole life failing to detect CONTEMPT. I thought I had made someone angry, therefore, I could probably fix it by changing something, apologising, being nicer, etc.

But you can't change contempt, you can only "not be there". Genuine anger, you won't actually see all that often out there. Rage, yes, contempt, definitely. Anger and indignation are "clean" emotions (even if the person is mistaken in their beliefs) and quite rare.

This is big for me, I hope it helps you, too. Look up how to read contempt. It is the only emotion that is asymmetrical, it shows with a little smile or twitch on one side of the face only, while the other side looks unhappy.


Contempt...hm...

So I have been wondering if failing to catch some things like this have been working AGAINST or FOR autistic adults.

The reason I'm wondering this is because I, myself, easily catch subtleties in others, even to the point where I can't get others to see what I'm talking about. I'm NT, but maybe more NT than most people. Okay, so when I notice some things, such as contempt, a way I will deal with it is pretend that I don't get it. I recognize that the other person is being aggressive and trying to engage me in a negative way, so I will purposefully ignore it and continue being polite. It often diffuses the situation. They'll target someone else. I would say the only benefit to me knowing it's happening is that I can extricate myself from them while appearing to have a positive relationship with them.

Maybe TRULY not getting some of the negative subtle signals is also diffusing things to a degree and will eventually move you out of being a negative person's target.


I like what you said very much, exactly, and I so wish the very last part could be true. Deliberately ignoring it and being very polite should help, as it shows spirit, but failing to even see it will probably do the opposite, as we tend to hate those we hurt. "I have contempt for you, you don't notice, I see you as even more contemptible. Now I also feel guilt, and see you as the cause, and it increases my dislike."

Anger tends to fade; contempt seems to only increase because it has twisted motivations. People feel worse when the object of their contempt is removed by death or relocation, because then their bad feelings have nowhere to go, which explains why your family can have contempt for you, but still keep phoning and trying to see you. (Probably sounds incredible if you aren't from that kind of background.)


Yeah I see what you're saying. That definitely happens. I think everyone has either experienced that or can think of a circumstance where that's happened to someone they know. Sometimes people are just terrible. I agree, it is way worse when the contempt (or other negative emotions) come from your family, who you usually can't get away from. If you see this happening, I don't think there's anything wrong with simply cutting the person off. Either entirely, or severely limiting your contact with them. Even if you are forced to live with them, you can not tell them personal things, not have conversations with them, etc. Just treat them like a cashier at the supermarket. Be cordial and move on to your next order of business.



friedmacguffins
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02 Jul 2016, 12:34 pm

AS people, looking to be more effective, say to pay attention to results implied, people's social fronts, and emotional lives, which are usually considered to be shallow, along the lines of popularity contests.

It's somewhat ironic, to me, that NT people, looking to be more effective, say to pay attention to numbers, classifications, and results accomplished.

I felt that these were autistic mannerisms.



Jensen
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02 Jul 2016, 12:41 pm

ToughDiamond. No he´s not my healthcare person. Don´t have one.
He is my physiothereapist and he is very good. He has treated me for years and is, so far, the best for my problem and a very kind man - but suddenly he seemed more and more irritated and "snappy". I thought, it was because he had been ill, but efter the last time, when he didn´t even fninish his work, didn´t want to hear, when I told him, that an ischias pain came along as he worked, but just ran - I must say, my faith has weakened. I´m paying now (pains, that used to be under control) and he doesn´t answer, when I ask him to help reestablish the balance before I start training with another in the clinic.
It would be a good starting point.


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Last edited by Jensen on 02 Jul 2016, 4:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Chickenbird
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02 Jul 2016, 3:44 pm

SocOfAutism wrote:
Chickenbird wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
Chickenbird wrote:
I'm in my fifties and worked out that I was probably aspie about 6 years ago. A couple of years ago, I spent some time with those things on line that help you read emotions and faces. Didn't really notice a huge difference but last week, something happened. I had a problem with someone I know and suddenly the scales fell from my eyes.....I have spent my whole life failing to detect CONTEMPT. I thought I had made someone angry, therefore, I could probably fix it by changing something, apologising, being nicer, etc.

But you can't change contempt, you can only "not be there". Genuine anger, you won't actually see all that often out there. Rage, yes, contempt, definitely. Anger and indignation are "clean" emotions (even if the person is mistaken in their beliefs) and quite rare.

This is big for me, I hope it helps you, too. Look up how to read contempt. It is the only emotion that is asymmetrical, it shows with a little smile or twitch on one side of the face only, while the other side looks unhappy.


Contempt...hm...

So I have been wondering if failing to catch some things like this have been working AGAINST or FOR autistic adults.

The reason I'm wondering this is because I, myself, easily catch subtleties in others, even to the point where I can't get others to see what I'm talking about. I'm NT, but maybe more NT than most people. Okay, so when I notice some things, such as contempt, a way I will deal with it is pretend that I don't get it. I recognize that the other person is being aggressive and trying to engage me in a negative way, so I will purposefully ignore it and continue being polite. It often diffuses the situation. They'll target someone else. I would say the only benefit to me knowing it's happening is that I can extricate myself from them while appearing to have a positive relationship with them.

Maybe TRULY not getting some of the negative subtle signals is also diffusing things to a degree and will eventually move you out of being a negative person's target.


I like what you said very much, exactly, and I so wish the very last part could be true. Deliberately ignoring it and being very polite should help, as it shows spirit, but failing to even see it will probably do the opposite, as we tend to hate those we hurt. "I have contempt for you, you don't notice, I see you as even more contemptible. Now I also feel guilt, and see you as the cause, and it increases my dislike."

Anger tends to fade; contempt seems to only increase because it has twisted motivations. People feel worse when the object of their contempt is removed by death or relocation, because then their bad feelings have nowhere to go, which explains why your family can have contempt for you, but still keep phoning and trying to see you. (Probably sounds incredible if you aren't from that kind of background.)


Yeah I see what you're saying. That definitely happens. I think everyone has either experienced that or can think of a circumstance where that's happened to someone they know. Sometimes people are just terrible. I agree, it is way worse when the contempt (or other negative emotions) come from your family, who you usually can't get away from. If you see this happening, I don't think there's anything wrong with simply cutting the person off. Either entirely, or severely limiting your contact with them. Even if you are forced to live with them, you can not tell them personal things, not have conversations with them, etc. Just treat them like a cashier at the supermarket. Be cordial and move on to your next order of business.


They certainly can be, and of course, I was one of them for a long time. I tried the "just be civil" thing for 15 years, but things got steadily worse, and they started interfering with my marriage and threatening the harmony there, trying to get a response. Now, I don't speak to anyone I have a blood tie to, closer than 4th cousin, and if they write to "Mr & Mrs" I keep it to myself, with his agreement. But I am glad I took that long, as I needed to be very sure before getting so drastic.


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You are very likely neurotypical"
Changed score with attention to health. Still have AS traits and also some difficulties.


goatfish57
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03 Jul 2016, 6:41 am

Yeah, it sucks. Letting a social/emotional misunderstanding get under our skin is no fun and our poor little brain can not let it go. Happens to me all the time.

Mahatma Gandhi said, "Nobody can hurt me without my permission." Which is much easier said than done.

I am reminded of a comedian Gallagher and his smash routine. The people in the front rows wear raincoat and umbrellas to keep all the smashed melons off their clothes. When some is projecting offensive social/emotional signal, I need to put on a raincoat and open the umbrella.


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