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EveyHammond
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02 Jul 2016, 9:54 am

Hi:
Let's say that a group of people are friends who don't like you because of your views, looks, intelligence etc. Let's also say that there is a leader of the group whose known to lie, get attention and manipulate others to do what they want. All the while they seem to be picky and choosy about inviting certain people to certain things. This includes people who they call their "friends." Yet you appear to be invited because you meet their criteria though you do things there that clearly bother them. Finally this person appears to bad mouth and even lie about their supposed friends.

So you decide to talk to the people who were not invited and mention that this leader of the pack was saying some unnecessary and dishonest things about them. At first you are believed until one of them goes and starts communicating with the source. The next thing you know they are dumping you.

So you try and confront the leader only to be told that you are the one whose been lying and talking trash the leader and the group and how you are the bully. However this is not the only time that you have confronted this group. So you are accused of "Harassing them and stalking them" though you feel they have nothing that you want and you only have communicated when they have heard they have been gossiping about you to your real friends.

A few questions:
1. How do you shut them down?
2. How do you get others to believe you when you aren't lying?
3. How do you confront them?



FullMetalAspie
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02 Jul 2016, 10:19 am

I wouldn't try to shut them down but that's just me and maybe someone has a better idea.
This leader sounds like a manipulator even when your friends have confronted the leader they are always able to turn it around and come out on top. I would just remove myself from the situation if you aren't forced to interact with this group or see them on a daily basis I wouldn't contact them. As far as getting people to believe you they either will believe you or they won't if its all just hearsay and there is not much you can do to convince them.



Aristophanes
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02 Jul 2016, 10:48 am

Ah power, what a sickly game.

If the leader is pushing someone out of the group and you tell that person, they are not going to confront the leader, they're going to do everything possible to appease the leader because they're merely one person and the leader has a group and they want access to what the group provides.

Also, you don't take down the leader in open confrontation, you out-maneuver the leader by creating leverage inside the group. You need to do things for other members of the group. First you need to get to know the other individuals and what it is they want, then you need to start providing those wants. Once you've got them feeding out of your hand, then you have strength in numbers, and that's when you turn on the leader-- if the "food" is coming from your hand and not the leader, they will follow you and not him/her. Groups will follow the "food", not the individual, and certainly not the morals of the group.

Realize "food" could be any number of things, from validation, to helping them with a project, to even bringing cookies to the group meetings to influence the whole pack. It all adds up, and it can take a while before your power base is large enough to make a move. You need to be subversive about it, you can't show that you have ambition for the top spot: the leader will quash you if he/she finds out you have ambition for his/her role, and it also brings disdain from the group members (people hate change, even if they don't like the current leadership, change is uncertain and uncertainty makes people uncomfortable). That's also why the timing of that move is crucial: you need to wait until the leader makes a misstep (a mistake makes people more comfortable with change), then you give the challenge and apply your leverage on other members to support you.



Fnord
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02 Jul 2016, 10:53 am

Games of power rely on member participation.

Stay out of the game.



SilverProteus
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02 Jul 2016, 11:24 am

1. How do you shut them down?

Aristophanes wrote:
If the leader is pushing someone out of the group and you tell that person, they are not going to confront the leader, they're going to do everything possible to appease the leader because they're merely one person and the leader has a group and they want access to what the group provides.


True, and the more "closed" a group is, the more premium people place on that group. Groups that offer higher social status also cause people in general to want to belong to it more.

Quote:
Also, you don't take down the leader in open confrontation, you out-maneuver the leader by creating leverage inside the group. You need to do things for other members of the group. First you need to get to know the other individuals and what it is they want, then you need to start providing those wants. Once you've got them feeding out of your hand, then you have strength in numbers, and that's when you turn on the leader-- if the "food" is coming from your hand and not the leader, they will follow you and not him/her. Groups will follow the "food", not the individual, and certainly not the morals of the group.


I agree that you should take an indirect approach, out-maneuver her in any way you can (whatever the situation calls for). Learn to recognise opportunities and seize them.

Of course, this all depends on what YOU want. Do you want to take over or simply shut them down and get your good name back?

I don't entirely agree that 'taking over' the Queen Bee's group is necessarily the best option. Why would it be more desirable? Gather your own and create a new group. It might be that some of hers would want to come over to you, if you succeed in giving them what they want. You're going to have to exude charisma and confidence if you're going to have a standing chance at becoming a new Queen Bee (be a better version, of course ;) ).

You could go for the 'divide and conquer' approach. Go for the weak links first, those people who are on the margins of the group. Don't bring up the fact that the leader is a lying c**t, they're not going to believe you. Be subtle. Actions speak louder than words.

Quote:
Realize "food" could be any number of things, from validation, to helping them with a project, to even bringing cookies to the group meetings to influence the whole pack. It all adds up, and it can take a while before your power base is large enough to make a move. You need to be subversive about it, you can't show that you have ambition for the top spot: the leader will quash you if he/she finds out you have ambition for his/her role, and it also brings disdain from the group members (people hate change, even if they don't like the current leadership, change is uncertain and uncertainty makes people uncomfortable). That's also why the timing of that move is crucial: you need to wait until the leader makes a misstep (a mistake makes people more comfortable with change), then you give the challenge and apply your leverage on other members to support you.


Agree. Again the importance of knowing what they want. However, always giving a large group of people what they want can be draining, both on personal time, energy and possible even financially. You would need to get them to focus more on your shared needs, or filter out people from your group based on this criteria.

2. How do you get others to believe you when you aren't lying?

This is going to be tough, as first impressions weigh more on people's psyches than latter ones, but you have to be consistent in telling the truth. Build a reputation and it will be tougher for her or anyone else to tarnish it.

3. How do you confront them?

I wouldn't confront them directly. Undermine what she does. Use every mistake against her, possibly even set her up to make a few big ones.


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EveyHammond
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02 Jul 2016, 11:42 am

How would one set them up in terms of the big mistakes?



SilverProteus
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02 Jul 2016, 11:59 am

EveyHammond wrote:
How would one set them up in terms of the big mistakes?


Depends on the situation. Learn how she ticks and use her own inclinations against her, they usually work very well. Decide what sort of outcome you want beforehand and enact goals that will get you there. Remember though that people are not like chess pieces on a chessboard, she will react to what you do so there's no step-by-step way of getting you there. Just try and get her to react with limited rationality or even irrationally.

For instance, in my case I had a university teacher bully and badmouth me behind my back (like the coward she is) with my other teachers. She, like your problem, was acting like a Queen Bee, lying, manipulative, and totally believed by her disgusting group of followers. Long story short it turned into illegal harassment/stalking (major mistake), which I didn't want but turned it to my advantage. They were older and more experienced than me, which I used to find daunting. I can't say too much about it for reasons but there were a few "traps", which she came running into, eager to bully me more. I knew how she ticked and used it against her. There were other reasons involved but I can't comment on those.

She declared war, I reacted accordingly. Of course, this caused me a lot of suffering, I was an emotional wreck for years. You should weigh those aspects when deciding which course of action to take. It seems your 'problem' has more support than you do, at least at first.


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slw1990
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02 Jul 2016, 1:35 pm

I think it would be good to just avoid them. If they are really manipulative then they can probably gas-light anything you do or say. If the others can be persuaded by them than you probably can't trust them either. If you can it might be better to just cut them all out of your life and maybe try to find people who aren't involved in those kinds of games.



Aristophanes
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03 Jul 2016, 9:27 am

SilverProteus wrote:
I don't entirely agree that 'taking over' the Queen Bee's group is necessarily the best option. Why would it be more desirable? Gather your own and create a new group. It might be that some of hers would want to come over to you, if you succeed in giving them what they want. You're going to have to exude charisma and confidence if you're going to have a standing chance at becoming a new Queen Bee (be a better version, of course ;) ).


My observations of groups have led me to believe that when one is diametrically opposed to the leader, they're going to have to assume some power and leadership in the group to achieve their goals-- might as well go all in :lol: . My advice was more for how to gain leverage in the group-- one can stop generating leverage whenever they feel sated, but knowing how the end game operates allows for better decisions to be made in the mid-game.