Licensed to carry black man shot by police

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beneficii
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10 Jul 2016, 5:21 pm

luan78zao wrote:
beneficii wrote:
I'm talking about our policies, the practices we use, what we teach our officers, the implicit biases that exist in most of us. I'm not painting all officers with the same brush. There is a difference.

Until you learn that, then further discussion is useless.


What policies, exactly? What training practices and what biases? Listing undefined and unsupported generalities isn't taking part in a discussion at all. It is pointless virtue signaling.

Nothing you have posted suggests that you are entitled to patronize me or anybody else here.

I'll ask again: what evidence do you have that this specific incident was racially motivated?


I tend to act patronizing to people who make crap up and refuse to back down when called on it. It's because I have a hard time respecting such them.


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10 Jul 2016, 6:04 pm

ZenDen wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
I see this argument going on between some of you guys and I'm a little confused. I'm a person who grew up in extreme poverty, so the kind of person that ZenDen here is talking about. I think people like to believe that some people are so poor that they lose their dignity and humanity, and so are in truly desperate straits. I can tell you, as someone who has grown up in third-world style conditions here in the US, you are always still a human being.

It's funny because before I even got on WrongPlanet today I woke up thinking about this story that they used to tell us in church as a requirement of receiving church welfare. You'd have to stay for special "charity" themed sermons that only you and the other poor people had to listen to. There was this one about a boy who was 11 or 12 and he had a pair of female nurse's shoes that he had donated to him. They were the only shoes he had and it was this long detailed story about how grateful he was for them, even though they were women's nurses shoes. It always struck me as incredible, insulting bullshit. I'll even type that out. It was bullshit. Poor people are human beings and we always have dignity, even if we are desperate and have to swallow our pride and pretend we have no dignity.

So no, being poor is not an excuse to do something wrong, neither is being an oppressed minority. And yes, there is always something in your mind telling you that a wrong thing in wrong. Whether or not you choose to listen to that and act is up to you.


Hi SocOfAutism:

I propose understanding. If you truly understand how these people live and think then it's hard not to have compassion for them. The further you stand from the problem the less you understand and the more threatening it seems.

I'm guessing that you and Campin_Cat and many others in this forum are easily in the top 15% I.Q. wise. But the people on the streets in these ghettos are not, so my or your reasoning ability can not be theirs.

And as for dignity? In their black ghetto, in poverty, with the police on them all the time, the most downtrodden in our culture, how would these people gain dignity?


Zen, I CAN see your point. I truly do see what you're trying to say. What I am seeing here is an educated argument (yours) against points of view from people who have been on the ground, so to speak.

I was trying to say that people inherently have dignity. You can't take it away from them from trodding on them. No one can have any idea how conditions are affecting someone else on the inside. Plenty of people are just fine where and how they are and are proud of it. It's messed up to assume that they're in a pitiful state. Poor people have pride like anyone else. Some people's culture may happen to be ripping people off and shooting up. Or turning tricks and laying in filth. Some people like that, and they are WAY SMARTER THAN I AM. I could give you the contact information of just such a person, who gave birth to me. :roll: Certainly not all poor people are like this, but some are. People have a right to be who they are, even if it's distasteful to the rest of us. All we can do is help those who want it and avoid those who don't want help.

The black ghetto is also the white ghetto and the brown ghetto. I saw that someone, maybe it was Campin Cat, made that point, but I just wanted to underline that. Black does not equal poor. It's incredibly racist to think that it does. If you're in the ghetto, it really doesn't matter what color you are. Everyone there has a p*ss poor life and is under police suspicion. Usually with good reason.

I really don't have compassion for poor people. I probably have less than regular people do. I imagine it's like that for autistic people when they hear about other autistic people doing regular autistic people things. Why would you feel sorry for your own kind? That's kind of unnatural.

Again, please don't imagine that people in the ghetto are stupid. They absolutely are not. I have run into far stupider graduate students than stupid ghetto jerks or criminals. Not that I have run into ghetto people since I was a teenager. But I ran into enough to be able to compare.

It IS easier to live in general when you have things handed to you and you do not have the compounded social and physical problems that exist with poverty. I will grant that being black while poor gives limitations that do not exist when being black as a regular person. There is a perception that one cannot be a mailman, or a pharmacist, a professor or a person on the Geek Squad. People don't make sure that poor kids are prepared for the future and they typically have terrible role models and are abused in many ways.

I don't know if anyone else watches Game of Thrones, but it's like Rickon Stark being told to simply walk across a field to his brother and he'd be free. Meanwhile the bad guy shoots arrows at him the whole time. Sure, maybe Rickon could have strafed to the right and the left the whole time and gotten out of there, but it would have been challenging. Especially since he had probably been starved and otherwise tortured beforehand. So no, it's not simple. But it's also not as difficult as some people seem to think. With proper thought and work, you CAN simply walk out of poverty. You do not have to be white or in the top percentage of intelligence.



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10 Jul 2016, 6:50 pm

SocOfAutism wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
SocOfAutism wrote:
I see this argument going on between some of you guys and I'm a little confused. I'm a person who grew up in extreme poverty, so the kind of person that ZenDen here is talking about. I think people like to believe that some people are so poor that they lose their dignity and humanity, and so are in truly desperate straits. I can tell you, as someone who has grown up in third-world style conditions here in the US, you are always still a human being.

It's funny because before I even got on WrongPlanet today I woke up thinking about this story that they used to tell us in church as a requirement of receiving church welfare. You'd have to stay for special "charity" themed sermons that only you and the other poor people had to listen to. There was this one about a boy who was 11 or 12 and he had a pair of female nurse's shoes that he had donated to him. They were the only shoes he had and it was this long detailed story about how grateful he was for them, even though they were women's nurses shoes. It always struck me as incredible, insulting bullshit. I'll even type that out. It was bullshit. Poor people are human beings and we always have dignity, even if we are desperate and have to swallow our pride and pretend we have no dignity.

So no, being poor is not an excuse to do something wrong, neither is being an oppressed minority. And yes, there is always something in your mind telling you that a wrong thing in wrong. Whether or not you choose to listen to that and act is up to you.


Hi SocOfAutism:

I propose understanding. If you truly understand how these people live and think then it's hard not to have compassion for them. The further you stand from the problem the less you understand and the more threatening it seems.

I'm guessing that you and Campin_Cat and many others in this forum are easily in the top 15% I.Q. wise. But the people on the streets in these ghettos are not, so my or your reasoning ability can not be theirs.

And as for dignity? In their black ghetto, in poverty, with the police on them all the time, the most downtrodden in our culture, how would these people gain dignity?


Zen, I CAN see your point. I truly do see what you're trying to say. What I am seeing here is an educated argument (yours) against points of view from people who have been on the ground, so to speak.

I was trying to say that people inherently have dignity. You can't take it away from them from trodding on them. No one can have any idea how conditions are affecting someone else on the inside. Plenty of people are just fine where and how they are and are proud of it. It's messed up to assume that they're in a pitiful state. Poor people have pride like anyone else. Some people's culture may happen to be ripping people off and shooting up. Or turning tricks and laying in filth. Some people like that, and they are WAY SMARTER THAN I AM. I could give you the contact information of just such a person, who gave birth to me. :roll: Certainly not all poor people are like this, but some are. People have a right to be who they are, even if it's distasteful to the rest of us. All we can do is help those who want it and avoid those who don't want help.

The black ghetto is also the white ghetto and the brown ghetto. I saw that someone, maybe it was Campin Cat, made that point, but I just wanted to underline that. Black does not equal poor. It's incredibly racist to think that it does. If you're in the ghetto, it really doesn't matter what color you are. Everyone there has a p*ss poor life and is under police suspicion. Usually with good reason.

I really don't have compassion for poor people. I probably have less than regular people do. I imagine it's like that for autistic people when they hear about other autistic people doing regular autistic people things. Why would you feel sorry for your own kind? That's kind of unnatural.

Again, please don't imagine that people in the ghetto are stupid. They absolutely are not. I have run into far stupider graduate students than stupid ghetto jerks or criminals. Not that I have run into ghetto people since I was a teenager. But I ran into enough to be able to compare.

It IS easier to live in general when you have things handed to you and you do not have the compounded social and physical problems that exist with poverty. I will grant that being black while poor gives limitations that do not exist when being black as a regular person. There is a perception that one cannot be a mailman, or a pharmacist, a professor or a person on the Geek Squad. People don't make sure that poor kids are prepared for the future and they typically have terrible role models and are abused in many ways.

I don't know if anyone else watches Game of Thrones, but it's like Rickon Stark being told to simply walk across a field to his brother and he'd be free. Meanwhile the bad guy shoots arrows at him the whole time. Sure, maybe Rickon could have strafed to the right and the left the whole time and gotten out of there, but it would have been challenging. Especially since he had probably been starved and otherwise tortured beforehand. So no, it's not simple. But it's also not as difficult as some people seem to think. With proper thought and work, you CAN simply walk out of poverty. You do not have to be white or in the top percentage of intelligence.


"...dignity. You can't take it away from them from trodding on them...." Hmm-But how about if you poison them? I understand the CIA was found to have been facilitating drug flow into the ghettos; perhaps before your time?. How many black families do you know that have a drug problem? It's a scourge. It effects everything. Many of the looters will sell their loot to buy drugs.

"Some people like that, and they are WAY SMARTER THAN I AM" It's a shame isn't it? The first avocado I ever tasted was given to me by a very smart black, female hooker, junkie. And she's dead. That's what drugs can do to the vulnerable.

"I really don't have compassion for poor people." I've been poor too, but this is different. In my opinion, very different.

"There is a perception that one cannot be a mailman, or a pharmacist, a professor or a person on the Geek Squad. People don't make sure that poor kids are prepared for the future and they typically have terrible role models and are abused in many ways. Yes, you can be these things if you have good role models for neighbors...but what sane black man, making a decent wage, will want to raise a family in the ghetto?
And the schooling , which should be a first step in achieving success, is abysmal, at least in the Chicago ghetto schools.


"I don't know if anyone else watches Game of Thrones..." I've never watched so have no comment.

Thanks.

EDIT to change "by" to "buy."



luan78zao
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10 Jul 2016, 6:55 pm

beneficii wrote:
I tend to act patronizing to people who make crap up and refuse to back down when called on it.


Several people in this thread have pronounced a final verdict on this incident, declaring that it was a racially-motivated murder despite a lack of evidence proving such. I'm not one of them. Do you own a mirror?

Quote:
It's because I have a hard time respecting such them.


Right back atcha, ma'am. And the rest of the lynch mob too.


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10 Jul 2016, 8:30 pm

Really, there's no way anyone can come to a valid conclusion for this one.

A video after the fact by an eyewitness isn't any better than the police release; jumping either way is showing bias. BLM using it [before facts are known] as evidence of brutality is utterly wrong, and at worst, outright manipulation; at best, utter ignorance.

Something like say, the Sterling case, where you can see much of what happens, gives you a pretty good idea of who's to blame. BLM shouldn't use this one either, but they did.


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beneficii
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10 Jul 2016, 9:06 pm

luan78zao wrote:
beneficii wrote:
I tend to act patronizing to people who make crap up and refuse to back down when called on it.


Several people in this thread have pronounced a final verdict on this incident, declaring that it was a racially-motivated murder despite a lack of evidence proving such. I'm not one of them. Do you own a mirror?

Quote:
It's because I have a hard time respecting such them.


Right back atcha, ma'am. And the rest of the lynch mob too.


I don't think the officer thought, Oh, a black man! Gotta shoot him! Do you think I'm stupid or something?

Implicit, or unconscious, racial bias where you discriminate based on race without even realizing it, on the other hand, is a real and well-documented societal problem. There is evidence that police officers are more likely to interpret actions by a black man as more hostile than the same actions by a white man, because of this implicit bias. There's a good chance the decision-making of the officer in this case was influenced by this unconscious bias.

Harvard even has a test for people to see how biased they are racially. You'd be surprised:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/u ... ndexrk.htm

Here are articles, one from a scholarly source and another from a news source, that explore these implicit biases in policing and criminal justice:

http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article ... al_justice

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... ce-system/

Implicit racial bias is what we're talking about here.

EDIT: Here's a more recent source, that speaks to this thread's issue directly:

http://www.livescience.com/55337-uncons ... -bias.html


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11 Jul 2016, 1:42 am

As beneficii indicated implicit racial bias carried by the police is widespread. Here in Australia it's been recognized that people joining the police force have no exposure at all to lower socioeconomic groups and particularly other cultural groups. There tends to be an unhealthy preference to only associate with people like themselves, live in areas where there people like themselves and send their kids to all white schools.

There has been a heavy emphasis on Australian police recruits getting considerable exposure to other cultures (particularly indigenous) in order they properly understand cultural sensitivity and not make rash ignorant decisions when dealing with other cultures...



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11 Jul 2016, 3:13 am

I did Criminal Justice in Australia about...15 years ago now (state run college).

We had to do mandatory aboriginal and other cultural studies, and policing of the same.

Classes always had token minorities, people from various income levels, and similar demographic diversity.

Not saying there's no problems, but the education was there at least 20 years ago (classes were the same for some time).

Naturally, they tend to use aboriginal police in aboriginal communities. That's taking it the next step further that...I have some issues with (doesn't really point to a unified nation at the state level for my liking).

It'd be interesting what the education/training is like in the US. They tended to be ahead of "us" in regards to police procedure for minorities and similar (as they've had to police them to a higher degree).

I question that say, a white person that's always around white people, will have innate biases when exposed to a different culture [or class]--language barriers are the biggest problem, and if everyone can speak the same language, it shouldn't be a problem at all. We're still dealing with nations that have similar education and social structure; people are far more alike than unlike when under the same flag with the same education.


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11 Jul 2016, 3:23 am

beneficii wrote:
Harvard even has a test for people to see how biased they are racially. You'd be surprised:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/u ... ndexrk.htm


I always knew I was transracial.


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11 Jul 2016, 7:36 am

As to the actual incident that this thread is about. I withdraw any opinion about that. I still have a general feeling that the guy was killed, but things keep popping out that make it seem pretty complicated, so I'm not going to pretend that I know about it.

I DO know about living in the "ghetto" and about poor people. I won't bother to argue my point any further. In real life, I would have agreed with everything ZenDen said and also called him sir, because of his age and my age. It's ridiculous for me to act like I know more than he does when he's a lot older than I am, even if it's a topic that I'm personally familiar with.

I apologize for publicly disagreeing with you, Zen. It's not my place to argue with you in the first place and I'm clearly not going to change your mind.



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11 Jul 2016, 9:03 am

@ ZenDen:

Wow. I might as well have been talking about pickles and ice cream, cuz then, maybe, I would‘ve better understood your reply.

I broke my OWN rule by revealing things in that post that I’ve never divulged, before, on this site; but, I thought it was really important to do so, so that you could see that I truly CAN relate to some of the things, some black people have experienced----but, I feel, now, that I made a mistake in doing so, because it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. (My rule is to not reveal any of the really bad things that have happened in my life, in a debate [IMO, it cheapens them]----but, to only reveal them if I think my doing so, could help someone.)

Bottom line, for ME, is that you’ll never, in a million years, convince me that the way I feel / think about this subject, is wrong----and, you’ll never convince me that you’re right, so…..

I leave this conversation, with you, here.



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11 Jul 2016, 9:19 am

Hi SocOfAutism :D

As to the actual incident that this thread is about. I withdraw any opinion about that. I still have a general feeling that the guy was killed, but things keep popping out that make it seem pretty complicated, so I'm not going to pretend that I know about it.

I DO know about living in the "ghetto" and about poor people. I won't bother to argue my point any further. In real life, I would have agreed with everything ZenDen said and also called him sir, because of his age and my age. It's ridiculous for me to act like I know more than he does when he's a lot older than I am, even if it's a topic that I'm personally familiar with.

:D But even an "old fart" can still learn things. The thing about getting older, for me, is that you have plenty of time to review......

CORRECTION: I SAID IN AN EARLIER POST MY FRIEND BOB HAD BEEN EXECUTED BY CHICAGO POLICE SOMETIME NEAR THE END OF MY MACHINERY MOVING DAYS..IT HAPPENED IN '68...LONG BEFORE.
SEE: FORGETTING THINGS IS ALSO A FEATURE OF GETTING OLDER! :(


But I had many years to think and to analyze the reasons for this kind of thing happening. After I stopped working I found all the energy expended thinking about work (etc.) I could now spend thinking my own thoughts...it's been 11 years now since I retired....still get things wrong about 1/2 the time. :oops:

I apologize for publicly disagreeing with you, Zen. It's not my place to argue with you in the first place and I'm clearly not going to change your mind.

You can change my mind about many things...easily...but this one I'm pretty sure I have "nailed." But if you and others don't argue with me then I'll never learn, just get big-headed and stupid...and I'll try to be more complete, instead of gruff (there's really no reason for that) so others may understand my logic better.

I apologize for publicly disagreeing with you, Zen. OK, I accept, but if you stop disagreeing I'll be very disappointed. Old Farts make mistakes as well...who will correct us if not you? I appreciate discussing things with you and like that you have so much patience.

One reason (besides enjoying all the people here) I spend time here "jabbering on" about things is merely because I am older. I find events often happen in something close to a "generational" cycle so that the incidents (such as racial uprising and government oppression) I experienced and witnessed in my teens and twenty's, are "damped down" only often to reoccur (such as racial rioting). I note the similarities/differences and regurgitate what I remember. From my first memories I've always felt compelled to learn things...I guess this is what happens to the things I've learned (sometimes). :D

Please let me apologize to you and others...with these memories on my shoulders (if you will) I tend often to be short and (although I try not to be) dismissive. EXAMPLE: People making slight of the WWII atrocities has lead me to say things that got me an official reprimand from the board...that's how things can sometimes get away from me. My deepest apologies to anyone I may have "steam rollered"...it was stupidly unintentional.



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11 Jul 2016, 9:20 am

Dillogic wrote:
Really, there's no way anyone can come to a valid conclusion for this one.

A video after the fact by an eyewitness isn't any better than the police release; jumping either way is showing bias. BLM using it [before facts are known] as evidence of brutality is utterly wrong, and at worst, outright manipulation; at best, utter ignorance.

Something like say, the Sterling case, where you can see much of what happens, gives you a pretty good idea of who's to blame. BLM shouldn't use this one either, but they did.

I AGREE!!

I might also add that an after-the-fact video could ALSO be manipulation. What do we see----other than the obvious (a man dying)----we see a woman being respectful, while a weapon is trained on her boyfriend. She knew she was recording----it would've been really stupid of her, to be disrespectful, THEN, no.1; and no.2, how do we know, at-this-point, what happened BEFORE she began recording?



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11 Jul 2016, 9:43 am

beneficii wrote:
Implicit, or unconscious, racial bias where you discriminate based on race without even realizing it, on the other hand, is a real and well-documented societal problem. There is evidence that police officers are more likely to interpret actions by a black man as more hostile than the same actions by a white man, because of this implicit bias. There's a good chance the decision-making of the officer in this case was influenced by this unconscious bias.

"Well-documented" does not equal "PROOF", because documents can be slanted by the writer, misinterpreted by the reader, etc.; and, even videos / photos can be misinterpreted by the viewer----or, slanted by the video-taker, as, IMO, could, very well, have been done in THIS case.

If you're WHITE----man OR woman----and, you have a gun on your lap when you're pulled-over, your chances of getting shot / killed, are VERY good!!

I'm thinking an UNconscious officer is incapable of making ANY decisions / biases----they might be there in his SUBconcious, but how could we know, if he's unconscious?



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11 Jul 2016, 9:46 am

Hi again Campin_Cat :D

You said: Wow. I might as well have been talking about pickles and ice cream, cuz then, maybe, I would‘ve better understood your reply.

I broke my OWN rule by revealing things in that post that I’ve never divulged, before, on this site; but, I thought it was really important to do so, so that you could see that I truly CAN relate to some of the things, some black people have experienced----but, I feel, now, that I made a mistake in doing so, because it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

Yep...VERY deaf ears. It wasn't until well after our posts that this occurred to me. IN EXPLANATION: Would it surprise you to know I had NO friends (including friendly relatives) until I met my wife when I was 18...like so many here? Socially (and associated niceties) I blunder about...I'm sorry I "blundered" here as well. :oops: :oops: :oops:

(My rule is to not reveal any of the really bad things that have happened in my life, in a debate [IMO, it cheapens them]----but, to only reveal them if I think my doing so, could help someone.)

I can relate. There have been terrible things in my life I won't even share with my wife of 54 years. You'd think that might make me much more sensitive...but it hasn't...it takes work.

But I'm working on it.

Bottom line, for ME, is that you’ll never, in a million years, convince me that the way I feel / think about this subject, is wrong----and, you’ll never convince me that you’re right, so…..

Wellll...they say "never say never." When I was younger, before much of my life, I would have agreed with you 100%; perhaps something may yet happen in your life to change your thoughts on the subject? For me, to think I will always think the same, frightens me a little. I now actively question all of my long held beliefs, and find some need to be updated, perhaps by you...or perhaps others?

I leave this conversation, with you, here.

And I look forward to more interesting learning from you (selfish, huh?).

The privation you lived through when you were young was something I did not experience; for me the lack was mostly all social/emotional. It's not easy to be able to put yourself in someone's shoes as they grew up, and for me (and others) it's especially hard. I do much better with cold facts. I should have tried harder...I apologize for not treating you like a human being instead of a disembodied voice in a paragraph. Mia Culpa, Mia Culpa, Mia Culpa. :oops:

EDIT: To add last paragraph, :oops: (again).