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West vs East : Relationship and family values.

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The_Face_of_Boo
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20 Aug 2016, 6:04 am

"Not losing face" is certainly a strong characteristic of most of the East, including China.



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20 Aug 2016, 6:29 am

i'm thinking of the two people from lebanon i've met in person (there's a significant so-called "syrian-lebanese" community here, but it's mostly third-generation and forward by now. mostly christian lebanese i think. you see them often in positions of social influence, like medicine or politics)

one was a man (store owner, probably christian), the other one was a woman (technical researcher, westernized muslim). both had a friendly "at your service" kind of attitude. that's something rare in italy. the italian way to be welcoming is to show off what they have to offer ("pride"), instead of asking you what you need

the only cultural ethnicity here that hasn't really integrated even after a few generations is japanese (the only significant "asian" ethnicity here). they still have a "japanese neighborhood" in the city, and they often go to live in japan when they're young (but then they're seen as total foreigners there despite being 100% ethnically japanese, and they're not treated well. kinda like "how dare you pretend you're japanese". while, in italy, if you look italian and you speak italian, you're italian)

oddly enough, by my last year in college, most of my pseudo-friends were japanese (yes, they are overrepresented in college). there was also a japanese girl in high school who seemed to be interested in me. but then she got really discouraged when people started to suggest she actually was interested in me. they were probably just pulling her leg, but she really didn't like it

it's too bad i didn't realize what was (probably) going on. to me she was just a friend, but, in retrospect, she was probably the one person i might actually have had something meaningful with back then. i don't even remember how i met her. she wasn't connected to my group of friends. she wasn't ugly, but she wasn't particularly attractive to me either, so i didn't really notice her that way. i was too busy being obsessed with someone else


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Amity
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20 Aug 2016, 7:20 am

anagram wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Amity wrote:
Maybe the typical spatial awareness differences between men and women influence the importance some women may place on men owning a car. Whats wrong with placing value on a strength men generally have?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... n-men.html

like my father says: "just ask your insurance company". old people pay more for medical insurance, women pay less for car insurance. i don't think biological differences are a major factor at that though. it's probably just that men tend to be overconfident (and so make more mistakes), because "men are supposed to be good drivers"

the op is more complex, so i'm responding to it next

Here it isn't legal to discriminate against men with regard to car insurance, due to EU rules banning gender discrimination. It meant that the cost of my policy went up while the insurance companies figured out ways to indirectly discriminate against men and still charge them more. Go equality!

I meant that from a visuospatial perspective men tend to be more adept due to how we evolved, eg men hunt, women nurture etc
I don't see any problem with people valuing traditional gender differences.



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20 Aug 2016, 10:29 am

Amity wrote:
anagram wrote:
like my father says: "just ask your insurance company". old people pay more for medical insurance, women pay less for car insurance. i don't think biological differences are a major factor at that though. it's probably just that men tend to be overconfident (and so make more mistakes), because "men are supposed to be good drivers"

Here it isn't legal to discriminate against men with regard to car insurance, due to EU rules banning gender discrimination. It meant that the cost of my policy went up while the insurance companies figured out ways to indirectly discriminate against men and still charge them more. Go equality!

I meant that from a visuospatial perspective men tend to be more adept due to how we evolved, eg men hunt, women nurture etc
I don't see any problem with people valuing traditional gender differences.


If there is some superior spatial ability amongst men, whyever that may be, when it comes to driving any benefits are quickly overwhelmed by a sense of superiority. The drivers I see going at idiotic, unnecessary speeds and risking both their own lives and those of other road users are by a huge margin (easily 40:1) male. Which is borne out by the hospitalisations and deaths reported in the local news. All the spatial ability in the world isn't going to keep you safe when you take a tight, blind corner on a narrow road, drifing half into the oncoming side at 50mph and there happens to be a like-minded indiviualcoming the other way.

If I wanted to impress with my spatial ability, I'd take up juggling or darts, not rely on luck or the good sense of other road users in a game of unintentional/accidental chicken.

I think women liking men with a car is a hangover from men being allowed/expected to be more independent than women - the man can literally take the woman places - and also possibly as a status marker.


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Amity
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20 Aug 2016, 11:01 am

^Yes for sure, it all plays a part.
I agreed with the linked article about women being safer drivers too. My point is that some women choose to value traditional gender roles and that should be OK!
I've always been the driver, but I've known women that genuinely struggle with driving, whether that's conditioned or innate or both I don't know, but it's real.



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20 Aug 2016, 11:10 am

anagram wrote:
i'm thinking of the two people from lebanon i've met in person (there's a significant so-called "syrian-lebanese" community here, but it's mostly third-generation and forward by now. mostly christian lebanese i think. you see them often in positions of social influence, like medicine or politics)

one was a man (store owner, probably christian), the other one was a woman (technical researcher, westernized muslim). both had a friendly "at your service" kind of attitude. that's something rare in italy. the italian way to be welcoming is to show off what they have to offer ("pride"), instead of asking you what you need

the only cultural ethnicity here that hasn't really integrated even after a few generations is japanese (the only significant "asian" ethnicity here). they still have a "japanese neighborhood" in the city, and they often go to live in japan when they're young (but then they're seen as total foreigners there despite being 100% ethnically japanese, and they're not treated well. kinda like "how dare you pretend you're japanese". while, in italy, if you look italian and you speak italian, you're italian)

oddly enough, by my last year in college, most of my pseudo-friends were japanese (yes, they are overrepresented in college). there was also a japanese girl in high school who seemed to be interested in me. but then she got really discouraged when people started to suggest she actually was interested in me. they were probably just pulling her leg, but she really didn't like it

it's too bad i didn't realize what was (probably) going on. to me she was just a friend, but, in retrospect, she was probably the one person i might actually have had something meaningful with back then. i don't even remember how i met her. she wasn't connected to my group of friends. she wasn't ugly, but she wasn't particularly attractive to me either, so i didn't really notice her that way. i was too busy being obsessed with someone else


I think I see what you mean of pride now - I think it's something common in cultures with long imperial history.

Hmmm... if only Hannibal made it. :p Imagine how the world would have been today, would Italy and Europe have been the same?



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20 Aug 2016, 11:51 am

Amity wrote:
My point is that some women choose to value traditional gender roles and that should be OK!


I can agree with that.

Quote:
I've always been the driver, but I've known women that genuinely struggle with driving, whether that's conditioned or innate or both I don't know, but it's real.


Certainly. I think it's a mix of those and more besides, but that's what I think of most things.

I grew up in a carless household, so was (am) used to public transport and walking (and in my youth, cycling). I'd have struggled to afford a car anyway, so never bothered to learn once I was old enough. Mrs Hopper (who also turned out to be autistic) had a go not long after we first got together, but struggled - she couldn't keep up with the sequential processing. She has trouble negotiating some of the more complex pedestrian crossings at busy crossroads, so driving was pretty much right out.

I didn't fancy my chances, but tried a few years later. I did fine when it came to town driving, as it's a constant flow of information and adjustment, which I was used to from cycling. But I'd edge into panic attacks when it came to driving on fast roads - anything over 45mph and I'd get very nervy. My instructor encouraged me to take my test, but I just wouldn't have felt safe, and worried I'd do myself or somene else serious harm.


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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


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20 Aug 2016, 5:34 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I think I see what you mean of pride now - I think it's something common in cultures with long imperial history.

Hmmm... if only Hannibal made it. :p Imagine how the world would have been today, would Italy and Europe have been the same?

the whole world would probably have been different. though it's fun to imagine how different. because the mediterranean would still have been dominated by a mediterranean culture, not an outside force. but would europe have been the center of the world order? probably not. would we have had a punic empire reaching global influence? what cultural values would it have spread and perpetuated?

i feel like playing civ5 right now :D


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The_Face_of_Boo
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22 Aug 2016, 2:14 am

anagram wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
I think I see what you mean of pride now - I think it's something common in cultures with long imperial history.

Hmmm... if only Hannibal made it. :p Imagine how the world would have been today, would Italy and Europe have been the same?

the whole world would probably have been different. though it's fun to imagine how different. because the mediterranean would still have been dominated by a mediterranean culture, not an outside force. but would europe have been the center of the world order? probably not. would we have had a punic empire reaching global influence? what cultural values would it have spread and perpetuated?

i feel like playing civ5 right now :D


I feel like playing Rome: total war. :lol: Rome 2 did have a very nice Carthage campaign, it was well done.



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22 Aug 2016, 6:33 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Other typical differences based on observation/ again, they're generalizations and surely not true for every individual (it is impossible to talk about major cultural differences without making generalizations):


-The "sex for fun", such within flings or short terms.

- In the West: it is not uncommon, it is commonly talked about, even if it's less socially accepted than long terms. Sex is not exclusively for long terms and marriage.

- In the East: Typically, the concept is absolutely not accepted by eastern women, in my experience if you tell an Eastern woman about what's friendship with benefits or what's flings for instance, her brain "freezes" for a moment as if she can't compute the concept, for many of them they view the short term as something player men do by playing and tricking women for sake of sex but never as something that women may be willingly and mutually accept it as well. For the most of them, sex must be exclusive for marriage and at least for serious LT.

more on the difference in perception of sex: http://www.meldmagazine.com.au/2013/09/ ... ern-asian/
[.....]
Yeah, that's true. The biggest culture shock I've ever encountered here was about FB things. Another thing I wasn't able to understand was that some men seemed so much embarrassed by being a virgin themselves. It's way way wayyyy more respected and preferred to stay a virgin until marriage in my culture.


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23 Aug 2016, 7:26 am

Drawyer wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Other typical differences based on observation/ again, they're generalizations and surely not true for every individual (it is impossible to talk about major cultural differences without making generalizations):


-The "sex for fun", such within flings or short terms.

- In the West: it is not uncommon, it is commonly talked about, even if it's less socially accepted than long terms. Sex is not exclusively for long terms and marriage.

- In the East: Typically, the concept is absolutely not accepted by eastern women, in my experience if you tell an Eastern woman about what's friendship with benefits or what's flings for instance, her brain "freezes" for a moment as if she can't compute the concept, for many of them they view the short term as something player men do by playing and tricking women for sake of sex but never as something that women may be willingly and mutually accept it as well. For the most of them, sex must be exclusive for marriage and at least for serious LT.

more on the difference in perception of sex: http://www.meldmagazine.com.au/2013/09/ ... ern-asian/
[.....]
Yeah, that's true. The biggest culture shock I've ever encountered here was about FB things. Another thing I wasn't able to understand was that some men seemed so much embarrassed by being a virgin themselves. It's way way wayyyy more respected and preferred to stay a virgin until marriage in my culture.


....respected by the local women, but not much by the local men, at least that was my experience with the most of them.

But the typical reaction from an Eastern girl when she knows through a conversation that I had casual sex with some certain girl :
- "Why didn't you marry her? Why didn't you stay together?"
- "Because it was not a serious relationship in the first place"
- "Oh, you mean...you played her, you're a player."
- "No no , it was really something mutually accepted from the very start."
- <freezes for a long moment> "R...really? I don't believe you, I think she loved you and you just used her"

duh...something like that, always, every single time, obviously many of them believe that women can't have "sex just for fun".

Btw, what do you mean about the FB things?



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23 Aug 2016, 7:47 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
duh...something like that, always, every single time, obviously many of them believe that women can't have "sex just for fun".

Btw, what do you mean about the FB things?
..Duh.. obviously...I don't believe either...

FB things mean Friend-of-Benefit kinds of things.


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23 Aug 2016, 8:19 am

Drawyer wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
duh...something like that, always, every single time, obviously many of them believe that women can't have "sex just for fun".

Btw, what do you mean about the FB things?
..Duh.. obviously...I don't believe either...

FB things mean Friend-of-Benefit kinds of things.


Oh...but what about the plan of doing porn with me?



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23 Aug 2016, 8:44 am

Drawyer wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Other typical differences based on observation/ again, they're generalizations and surely not true for every individual (it is impossible to talk about major cultural differences without making generalizations):


-The "sex for fun", such within flings or short terms.

- In the West: it is not uncommon, it is commonly talked about, even if it's less socially accepted than long terms. Sex is not exclusively for long terms and marriage.

- In the East: Typically, the concept is absolutely not accepted by eastern women, in my experience if you tell an Eastern woman about what's friendship with benefits or what's flings for instance, her brain "freezes" for a moment as if she can't compute the concept, for many of them they view the short term as something player men do by playing and tricking women for sake of sex but never as something that women may be willingly and mutually accept it as well. For the most of them, sex must be exclusive for marriage and at least for serious LT.

more on the difference in perception of sex: http://www.meldmagazine.com.au/2013/09/ ... ern-asian/
[.....]
Yeah, that's true. The biggest culture shock I've ever encountered here was about FB things. Another thing I wasn't able to understand was that some men seemed so much embarrassed by being a virgin themselves. It's way way wayyyy more respected and preferred to stay a virgin until marriage in my culture.
That is a culture shock. I find it hard to imagine anyone actually wanting to hold onto their virginity. Losing it, for me was a huge relief.


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23 Aug 2016, 9:01 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
Drawyer wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Other typical differences based on observation/ again, they're generalizations and surely not true for every individual (it is impossible to talk about major cultural differences without making generalizations):


-The "sex for fun", such within flings or short terms.

- In the West: it is not uncommon, it is commonly talked about, even if it's less socially accepted than long terms. Sex is not exclusively for long terms and marriage.

- In the East: Typically, the concept is absolutely not accepted by eastern women, in my experience if you tell an Eastern woman about what's friendship with benefits or what's flings for instance, her brain "freezes" for a moment as if she can't compute the concept, for many of them they view the short term as something player men do by playing and tricking women for sake of sex but never as something that women may be willingly and mutually accept it as well. For the most of them, sex must be exclusive for marriage and at least for serious LT.

more on the difference in perception of sex: http://www.meldmagazine.com.au/2013/09/ ... ern-asian/
[.....]
Yeah, that's true. The biggest culture shock I've ever encountered here was about FB things. Another thing I wasn't able to understand was that some men seemed so much embarrassed by being a virgin themselves. It's way way wayyyy more respected and preferred to stay a virgin until marriage in my culture.
That is a culture shock. I find it hard to imagine anyone actually wanting to hold onto their virginity. Losing it, for me was a huge relief.


Few years ago, a lebanese girl cut dating me the moment I told her that I had a sexual experience with a girl before (and I was still penetration-wise virgin back then). Oops. Big oops. We were both late 20s.



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23 Aug 2016, 12:39 pm

the thing about not living with parents in old age changes the whole scenario.

why would a person marry and have kids when the kids wont be a asset for them in old age. when they cannot play with their grandchildren.

i think the whole theory of evolution and family, generation comes to standstill when kids move out, get own life, not take care of parents in oldage.

here in my country mostly traditional families live together. they live in joint family the sons with their parents and when a daughter in law gets married and comes she takes care of old parents, the parents take care of grandchildren till the time they are able take care of the grandchildren.

the whole family live together and the cycle continues. that way there is extended families, lot of people to help each other, support sytem, the elders manage the money they see to it that the younger generation are doing virtuous things. the families live together, eat together, pray together.

But in my case everything was topsyturvy. My father was not following any of this he was into alcohol, watching vulgar hollywood movies, reading vulgar novels, he wont respect elders and not treat children well.

the result is me. i am not much of part of my culture. THe people here find me different and i have to gel with them to learn what actually is my culture.


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