Black and white thinking and other examples of Asperger's

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I have this weird combination of black/white and gray areas. I see a lot of shades of gray in the world and in people; it's a perception thing. But in choice, in ethics, I have very strong feelings that manifest as black/white thinking. I'm tired and not expressing this very well, I don't think, but there's definitely room for both kinds of thinking in a single person. I do have trouble with 'yes or no' questions, as others have mentioned having. Too simplified.

Yes! and this throws me, because I want it to be clear: deal with "good" people and avoid "bad" ones... And new people are big mysteries: which will they be? The worst is trusting them and then finding out I was wrong.

In my youth I embraced Ayn Rand's writings; she clarified morality and inspired me. (Many philosophies do that; some are bad, like cults, propaganda and Republicans.) But I realized that life is seldom clear. One classic example is seeing a guy shove a woman hard so she falls down. Bad, right? Until you see that he pushed her out of the way of an oncoming truck. When my father brutalized me, it was "for my own good." People stay in painful jobs for the "benefits." Evolution, that process that created us all, with all our gifts, is prodigiously wasteful and completely amoral. That person you loved and married, well... ...change happens.

I guess I'm just trying to say that we want things to be clear, but they usually aren't.

Last edited by tomart on 20 May 2007, 6:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

It's fun when they can decide who wins, rather than cold, objective criteria...
They changed the rules probably for invisible (to some of us) reasons like clique loyalty, to let their friends win, politics. The same way that many of Bush's decisions make no rational sense (to us, his pathetic, unworthy subjects.) When you have the power to make and change the rules to benefit your friends and supporters, why not? "...You dance with them that brung ya."

. . . ...Fairness????? . . . . .... .... . . . . Again, power corrupts.

Last edited by tomart on 20 May 2007, 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

In terms of what's good/bad or fair/unfair I see black & white without many grey areas.
When it comes to judging someone's character however I've learned there is a
whole spectrum of colours in between and I try not to be too quick to jump to
conclusions (Tomart's example of a guy shoving a woman,to save her from an oncoming truck it later transpires,is a good example).You never know what underlying circumstances someone might have that makes them occasionally do things that seem out of character. Having said that,just because someone has been treated badly I don't tolerate them taking it out on others.
When something happens that's unfair I remember the sayings 'The first shall be last,and the
last shall be first' and 'what goes around comes around'. I'll stop for the moment as I'm
starting to write in cliches

After reading of some members' experiences in movie theaters (where they want to sit alone, the theater is mostly empty, and some NT feels he/she has to sit nearby, thinking the poor AS is lonely or something), and then rereading the above, I'm starting to think it's really quite a common phenomenon - but NTs are taught that they can simply project their emotional states onto others, and achieve some sort of communication. (Never mind that history is replete with examples of communication breakdowns based on this very phenomenon.) Perhaps this is the origin of that "Theory of Mind" silliness - we're regarded as "lacking" a TOM, because we know we can't just automatically achieve some sort of telepathic synthesis with another based on assuming that how we feel in a given situation must be how anyone would feel.

Puts me in mind of the Babel Fish in Douglas Adams' The Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy. It lives in its host's ear, feeding off the brainwave energy of nearby beings, and excreting into its host's brain a telepathic matrix enabling the host to understand perfectly everything everyone around is saying. "...the Babel Fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in history."

In some ways, black and white thinking is good. In terms of ethics, and how you treat people, there are no gray areas. There is no justification for meanness or underhandness in dealings with others.

What I don't like is "all or nothing," that you're either great or you're nothing, depending on how people feel at the time. That's not black and white founded on principles of ethics or morality. That's emotional instability.

It's exactly like that Deacon. I am constantly amused by this theory of mind nonsense which is refuted daily by my NT co-workers who project their feelings and actions onto others to explain them. This almost inevitably turns out to be wrong. It is like our admin constantly crying and complaining that us tech heads "must" participate in after work activities because we "need" to learn to be social. I keep reminding her that this is her need and we are content with our own company, to which she replies that we need to change. Such arrogance. It is a lack of TOM and empathy on their part that they can't see that not only do we not need that, we dislike it and it ruins our lives. They can't see past their own feelings and actions. Just remember, this is what you are missing out on and it's ruining your life. Here's psych med to make you feel better if it doesn't make you psychotic or catatonic. You'll be cured all right.

I missed the "Theory of Mind" class; could someone point me to a thread or summarize what that means & implies?

Does your admin have the power to compel acquiescence? Memos, company policy, rules, pressure? Some people, they get a little power, they become petty tyrants. Perhaps you're making her look bad, or she's getting pressure from "above."


Yes, we've learned that. It's the NT game: influence/manipulate/persuade others to feel the way they do: Lighten up, let's party, ain't it awful, let's boycott, ...all those Transactional Analysis Games People Play. And look at the rewards for the best players: running companies, elected to government, given enormous power & respect; or successful scam artists, almost the same thing.

Perhaps this is my rationalization for being unable to manipulate: that it's wrong.

Zanne, about the after work social things. I think they are supposed to encourage morale, teamwork, while providing a healthy outlet for any competitiveness before it turns into aggressiveness between co-workers/departments. And that IS a fine goal.

I'd much rather be "killed" by another team during a playful softball game or tag football than have tacks put on my office chair or get nasty notes left on my desk.

What they are failing to recognize is that OUR minds are not the same, we do not feel the same, and that it might even be HARMFUL for us to be placed in such a situation.

I get enough crap during the day, when I was working. I don't need any more after work, from the same people. Hah! I NEVER understood the apparent NEED for people who work together to continue to socialize after work.

My job was my job, I did a good job, and when the work was over for the day, so was the socializing in any way with those people. I didn't want to go to gatherings or picnics or parties or any of it.

I did go to some, but I never really felt comfortable. Like those holiday things.

If one doesn't go, then one isn't a team player. And they will carry that attitude back to work. You will begin to be seen as not a team player on the job. And they will start to look for reasons to let you go, because you are not part of the team. I hate that.

What they could use is a healthy dose of reality, Aspie-style. If you wish to have my presence at your after work events, you will pay me for it. It will become part of my job description. And if accommodations need to be made, ADA requirements, those will have to be addressed too. If there are special clothing items required for this new job part, I may need a raise or something like a uniform.

If there is an injury during these after work events that many employees are being pressured to attend, are those injuries considered "on the job" injuries? I think that would be an interesting legal precedent.

I would love to see an attorney play with those "required" after work events. They are company sponsored. You're being told to do them by your boss. TOLD to do them. Keep track, if you can of the things that are said. Journal it. Keep any memos, forward any emails to your personal mail (or print them). You get a bad review for not being a team worker, it could have to do solely with that after work stuff.

Then you get even more pressure to participate, as the review will be used to convince you that you NEED to put on this show for the boss and NTs that you're a good sport. AAAARRRRGGGG

Actually True, whenever she plans these things, only one or two will show up. We're aren't a social lot. We're all tech heads and none of us were hired for our social skills. We were hired for our tech skills. All the IT groups I've been in have been this way. We just have an admin who is social and feels like she's in the desert with us. She is following the rules of this is how to build a team and all she's getting is emails from people in my department saying if they have to attend these stupid things they'll quit. She's pulling her hair out thinking we are all weird. We are all weird. My boss, while very cognizant of the fact that I go home, plug in and recharge, also does much of the charity drives at work. So she does approach me to see if I want to do things like go to baseball games, to which I respond, give away my ticket and hand her money. I told her in the past that I will contribute twice the money as long as I don't have to show up. She understands that I will not go and it's no use asking me. She told me on Friday that "logic is a beautiful thing" and that's what she loves about me. I make her job easier because I know how to prioritize my work and I just told her how to make money on my position by invoicing the other departments for my services. She likes that so she protects me.

As for the admin, she'd have to try to take us all out to pick on any of us. We are not social and that's it. She'll probably end up leaving. Social people and feelers generally do not survive in the groups I work in.

I was recently encouraged to attend a 'team building' night out,even though I was only a temporary worker.I agreed to go despite having reservations about certain managers in the company.One day I was in the office when suddenly everyone around me got up off their seats and started making their way out the door - as if they'd suddenly been taken over by aliens ! Turned out there was a staff meeting but the management didn't have the courtesy to let me know.I couldn't argue about not being invited,just that I was left looking like an idiot because
I hadn't a clue what was happening.That incident together with the fact that some managers
used fear,bullying and controlling tactics and also made disparaging remarks about their
staff,convinced me it wasn't worth the effort trying to fit in.'Team building' is something that
should take place at work first and foremost,but instead some companies only pay lip
service to it by arranging social events,thinking this will somehow relieve them of the responsibility for creating the right atmosphere in the workplace to begin with.

Actually, they do it so you don't take time away from work. None of us are hourly in my department, so we wouldn't get paid for it and even if we did, I'm sure no one would go. They can't get us there now with free food and liquor. We're all too focused on work. A lunch might work, but I'm more interested in going out to Indian food with the Engineers from India then I am in eating bland American food. It sucked more when I was a manager and had to do birthday lunches and cart them all to training, etc. I couldn't get out of that. I also had to talk to them and it exhausted me. I like my life better now.

haha, so true!
When it happens I begin to think "damn, why do they sit this close?! The theater is empty! Choose somewhere else!!"




Viva la difference!

Could somebody please go back to my earlier post about not being able to call my stepfather 'daddy', which to me is a pretty clear example of black/white thinking? I'm curious why that got completely overlooked by everybody wondering what this topic is supposed to be about.

Not overlooked,and that is a good example.

That's a good example, but I think I fell into the Tony Attwood explanation of Aspies because I generally view everyone as extended family. That could also be because I come from a very large family (with both parents have nine siblings and all of those siblings having 6 to 10 kids and so on. I grew up calling everyone cousin because it was what we did, even with very distant cousins or cousins by marriage. Plus, in my family divorces never meant the person actually went away. They all still go to all the family functions and are referred to as aunt, uncle, sister-in-law or whatever. So I'm not very black and white in that respect.

I can definitely see how you would be stumped if someone suddenly told you to call some stranger Daddy when you already had one, especially if you didn't grow up like I did. You must have wondered, Now how does that work exactly?

I think there's too much acceptance on the part of most people to just accept things because they are told. I'm often told I "think too much" about things or that I "overthink" it.