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0_equals_true
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16 Sep 2016, 2:59 pm



I thought this was good commentary.

Most people think of the 6 million with asked about Nazi Extermination / Concentration Camps, they don't think of the 11 million. Why do we so easily forget the the other 5 million?



AspE
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16 Sep 2016, 3:10 pm

I always thought 6 million only applied to the Jews. Most non-combat victims of the Nazis weren't even sent to camps, they were forcibly starved in their own countries.



0_equals_true
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16 Sep 2016, 3:19 pm

AspE wrote:
I always thought 6 million only applied to the Jews. Most non-combat victims of the Nazis weren't even sent to camps, they were forcibly starved in their own countries.

There were plenty of non-jews in the camps. Slavs, Poles, gypsies, Jehovah's Witness, Left-wing, Gays and Lesbians, etc.

3 million of the Poles were non-Jewish.



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16 Sep 2016, 4:31 pm

Interesting. My somewhat cynical guess:

In the middle of the Manic Street Preachers song 'Mausoleum' (which is about the holocaust, as it happens), up comes the voice of JG Ballard, talking about his novel Crash. He says "I wanted to rub the human face in its own vomit, and force it to look in the mirror".

I think this is what the Nazi persecution and murder of the Jews was for a lot of Europe. The general constant hum of anti-semitism and violent outbursts driven by such were given an endpoint, and it was not pretty.

Now, it would be a rotten thing indeed if all the fun and scapegoating of violent racism, bigotry, and nationalist fervour was taken away from Europe, so the other victims could be - had to be - overlooked. But what was done to the Jews was too big to be ignored.


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kraftiekortie
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16 Sep 2016, 4:35 pm

The Holocaust cannot be forgotten.

Neither could the Slave Trade

Or the other various Genocides.

I don't care if I don't seem "deep" or "intellectual."

I just have difficulty with the Holocaust as a subject of satire, even though there's nothing inherently wrong with that.



0_equals_true
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16 Sep 2016, 4:59 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Neither could the Slave Trade


Do you know much about the Portuguese transatlantic trade? Or the Arab trade? Slave trade past and present.

der understanding of slavery thought history.



kraftiekortie
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16 Sep 2016, 5:05 pm

Yes I do. Both deplorable. I probably know less about the more ancient "slave trades."

I am one for saying that we should "move on" from the horrible things which happened historically.

But we should never forget them.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 16 Sep 2016, 5:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.

naturalplastic
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16 Sep 2016, 5:07 pm

AspE wrote:
I always thought 6 million only applied to the Jews. Most non-combat victims of the Nazis weren't even sent to camps, they were forcibly starved in their own countries.


No.

Six million Jews died in the camps.

On top of that another five million non Jews died in the camps. Those being political prisoners, Gypsies, trade unionists, the handicapped, etc etc..

Thus eleven million where murdered: just in the camps.

Then on top of that were the victims of the European theater of War at large:Fifteen million soldiers, and 20 million civilians. Thats where what you're talking about kicks in (civilians not sent to camps who died in the occupied countries of starvation or however).



kraftiekortie
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16 Sep 2016, 5:09 pm

Equal opportunity genocide. And I'm not kidding.



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16 Sep 2016, 5:10 pm

All of them should be recognized, and none should be ever forgotten as long as we have the ability to record events.

People should stop profiting off of them [and all other atrocities], though.



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16 Sep 2016, 5:15 pm

^ Yeah.


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AspE
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16 Sep 2016, 5:16 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
AspE wrote:
I always thought 6 million only applied to the Jews. Most non-combat victims of the Nazis weren't even sent to camps, they were forcibly starved in their own countries.

There were plenty of non-jews in the camps. Slavs, Poles, gypsies, Jehovah's Witness, Left-wing, Gays and Lesbians, etc.

3 million of the Poles were non-Jewish.

You misunderstood. I'm totally aware of the kind of people sent to the camps.



AspE
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16 Sep 2016, 5:17 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
AspE wrote:
I always thought 6 million only applied to the Jews. Most non-combat victims of the Nazis weren't even sent to camps, they were forcibly starved in their own countries.


No.

Six million Jews died in the camps.

On top of that another five million non Jews died in the camps. Those being political prisoners, Gypsies, trade unionists, the handicapped, etc etc..

Thus eleven million where murdered: just in the camps.

Then on top of that were the victims of the European theater of War at large:Fifteen million soldiers, and 20 million civilians. Thats where what you're talking about kicks in (civilians not sent to camps who died in the occupied countries of starvation or however).

Yeah, no s**t.



kraftiekortie
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16 Sep 2016, 5:23 pm

No matter how much we suffer for being autistic,

I still feel lucky that I live in a world where I could just go on a computer and "talk" to people.

I'm lucky I am able not to have to fear the coming of some soldiers to take me away somewhere.

Or to be able to drive 20 miles on the highway without having to bribe somebody.

No matter how much we scoff at our "first world" governments for not being the most morally upright possible, I count it as a blessing that I am not subject to the possibility of being burned out of my house without advance notice, and not to have to drag myself miles and miles in the mud from one refugee camp to another.



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16 Sep 2016, 5:29 pm

According to Deborah Lipstadt, the five million figure was made up by Simon Wiesenthal. The following is from Jonathan Tobin the Jewish publication Commentary magazine:

Quote:
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/culture-civilization/history/six-million-dead-but-eleven-or-is-it-twelve-million-universalizing-lies/

Wiesenthal’s deceptions about his own experiences during the Holocaust are well known and have been debunked many times. Also well-known is the fact that his boasts about helping to track down 1,000 Nazi war criminals are largely bogus. In particular, his claim that he was responsible for the capture of Adolf Eichmann was a lie. But, as Lipstadt notes, otherwise hardened journalists like the left-wing Israeli author Tom Segev have given Wiesenthal a pass on all this because they approve of the way the Austrian survivor sought to universalize the Shoah. It was Wiesenthal who popularized the notion that there were eleven million victims of the Holocaust (six million Jews and five million non-Jews), a figure that has been largely accepted by most Jews as well as non-Jews — even though it is not true. As Lipstadt writes:

On the one hand, the total number of non-Jewish civilians killed by the Germans in the course of World War II is far higher than five million. On the other hand, the number of non-Jewish civilians killed for racial or ideological reasons does not come close to five million. … When Israeli historians Yehuda Bauer and Yisrael Gutman challenged Wiesenthal on this point, he admitted that he had invented the figure of eleven million victims in order to stimulate interest in the Holocaust among non-Jews. He chose five million because it was almost, but not quite, as large as six million. … In recent months, Wiesenthal’s concoction has been further improved upon by a group of rabbis and imams who visited Auschwitz under the aegis of the US State Department. The statement they issued after their visit referred to the “twelve million victims, six million Jews and six million non-Jews.” Now we have parity. One wonders what’s next.


But wait a minute, is this holocaust denial or not? I'm confused!



kraftiekortie
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16 Sep 2016, 5:33 pm

Just look at the movies of the bodies being burned in the crematories in the death camps.

I don't care if it was 6 million, 60 million, or 1.6 million---

It's the fact of Genocide.

I saw those films when I was 12 years old.

Then I heard footsteps over me in the dining hall (I was in summer camp).

I got really sick because, in my imagination, those footsteps were being led to the gas chambers.