Respecting those who don't respect us?

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I've been thinking about this so called respect. Many feels I don't respect them. I feel the opposite. I feel that they demand me to kow tow to them and that by itself disrespectful. Am I being too stubborn? Or is it common among neurotypicals to see things based on what's obvious rather than what it truly logically imply.

I do not think I am the only one with this problem.

Let's pick a sample that's not related to me.

The muslim demand that you respect them by not drawing muhamad cartoon. Comedy central kow tow to the demand. They censored all muhamad pictures from an episode in south park.

The way I see it, it's the muslim that's not being respectful of freedom of speech and western tradition. Imagine if everyone can demand that their fairy tales are respected? Yes obviously they do not believe it's fairy tales. So is the christians, the hindu, the zeus worshippers, the pagan, the whatever. But we have people mocking jesus openly and it's okay. Yet, people putting pics of muhamad and it's not okay? To me, those people demand more than respect. They demand privilege.

And unfortunately I am at the same side on similar issues. I went to christian school in Indonesia. Indonesian government, at that time, requires all schools to have religious basis. It doesn't have to be islam but it has to be any religion. I was forced to memorize where Paul went on his early evangelism. I have no idea how to describe how furious I am. I was still religious at that time. I see absolutely no way God, which I no longer believe to exist, but even if he does, would tell us to memorize Paul went to. If anything, it's like worshiping Paul as if that guy is somebody important.

One day a school is closing. Every body pray. I was just busy putting books on my bag. I do not think praying is important. Even if God exist there is nothing in the bible that says we got to pray on school closing. I don't even understand the prayer anyway. If I pray I will just pray to get rich. Yet my school mates pray about all nonsense I don't even get.

Then a teacher slap me. I felt like those as*holes feel that I disrespect them by ignoring the comunal pray. I feel they disrespected me for not honoring my freedom not to give f**k.

My wife wanted me to go to church during easter. You kidding me? I got jobs to do making some real money. Why should I go to church? I have to climb fences on my house because my wife locked the fences. We divorced. A very expensive divorce because marriage is just sh***y nonsense designed to drain money.

And I felt that people are angry to me. I felt that somehow they want to come up with some way that I disrespect them. Because I do not respect marriage. Well tough. To me, marriage is just prostitution with government being the pimp. I really see no other meaning. Sacredness? Holyness? Religion? C'mon?

Even if God exist, is there anything in the bible that says you shall not have sex before getting married, followed by marriage defined as getting civil marriage certificate as regulated 1974 marriage law in Indonesia? How the hell getting marriage recognized by a group of thugs calling themselves government have any religious meaning whatsoever among most people is simply beyond me.

I celebrate Christmas on strip joints. I felt so disgusted with religion that I just feel like desecrating it in anyway I can. And as usual, it's the religious people that feel that I am not respecting them. I feel like they must have just made that up so they have reason to prosecute me.

That being said, I feel like helping Christians if I saw them being prosecuted by muslims. I just felt that's unfair.

There are many other samples where I feel that those that complain about not being respected is the one that's being an as*hole and the one not respecting others.

Take respect for women for example. Hillary says that Trump thinks that women should get paid the same only if they do equally good job. Duh? Isn't Trump being obvious? We know Trump offer a job to a woman in apprentice because that women do equally good job. Well, what Hillary truly wants is a certain privilege where employers have to bend over backward and pay women the same even for less.

No body is being underpaid under free market mechanism. If someone is being underpaid, employer will just pay them and make profit. Yet these feminists, that truly demand privilege, b***h about respect for women. Do they respect meritocracy? Do they respect capitalism? Do they respect results? No. Why should we respect their justification for injustice?

List go on and on. I don't know. May be people hate me. But should I bent over backward to try to be politically incorrect? I can't be fired for my opinions, unlike most americans.

Okay I ramble too much. This is not supposed to be political. It's supposed to be what I feel. May be I am a bit wrong. But it seems that I clashed too much with what many people think.

Maybe I should just hang around with like minded people. Or may be I should see the other side. I just have no idea how I should deal with this.

Should I just keep being my self? Should I agree to nonsense that I don't believe in? Should I pretend to agree and keep my opinion? What should i do?

In regard to Islam the way I kind of see it is that you have a worldwide community who holds religion dearest to their identity and their heart and is interwoven in the fabric of their communities. Muslims have their own culture and way of life and we have ours. Making fun of Jesus is different in a way as a christian secular society tolerates it but with Islam it is different, their religion is a fundamental part of the people's lives that they cherish. Perhaps we in the western world need to realize and appreciate just how sensitive this culture can be and how close to their beliefs these people are. Again what right do we have to degrade someone else's way of life and culture?

I am not sure what you mean by the Islamic culture in our society demanding privilege, they ask that their beliefs not be attacked as their community is more sensitive admittedly. But I think that what you may find is the opposite is happening I say this as you could argue that the rights of Muslims are being encroached such as in France the full Hijab has been banned, in this instance the Muslims are not gaining some kind of privilege but their cultural appropriations have been rejected and they as a people have been forced to conform.

In all honesty however I think you are justified in being upset with the idea of religion. But I guess you should act like your respect it when you are around an individual who is religious. After all for them faith and religion may be an essential part of their happiness and identity and sometimes I guess not questioning that is good, as an attack on someone's religion is essentially an attack on someone's uttermost core beliefs. Religion is something intimate to people I guess it makes them feel more assured that some higher being is looking out for them and allows people to live through life without fear.

If you want to express your views and understand others having a healthy debate and dialogue with a religious person may be good for allowing you to understand one another's perspective for them to understand yours. But for many other people questioning their point of view may not be good as many people I think may want faith to make their lives better and not be questioned on it.

Expecting Short Inferential Distances.

Imagine if I put gun in your head demanding money? Would you respect my demand out of respect?

Now, imagine I put gun in your head saying that I believe Zeus ordered you to pay me money and I am commanded to kill unbelievers? Would you respect my demand? What about if I am a very sensitive person and that obeying Zeus is a big part of my happiness?

If you respect people wish not to be mocked because they are "sensitive", then everyone, the christians, the jews, the chinese, women, Donald Trump, Hillary, and so on, will demand the same thing. They will all demand that their fairy tales is sacred and seeing problems in it are offensive.

Yes, Christians used to live in secular countries. So? So we bash people because they are more tolerant? I can't believe I am defending Christianity here.

Perhaps it's a number game. If you want to befriend muslims you might as well respect them. If you want to befriend some crazy zeus worshipper you might as well respect them too. Sort of make sense. When people have power they can demand respect.

But really? So all this ends in power game isn't it? I got to respect somebody simply because they have power over me. Maybe I should just realize that. Why antagonize so many people?

After all, western civilization have tons on non european people. Some would kill them for drawing cartoon. Some are industrious and win many nobel prizes. Guess which one are sent to concentration camp?

If you respect people for threatening you, you got more threat. They will kill you more because, well, it works. That's how they get people to obey you. If you disrespect them, they will kill you anyway because you disrespect them. So, may be you should stay away from them?

The way I do this is I respect people that respect me. But that leads to another problem. I guess that's another story.

You know. I've been thinking. I may not be the only one with interpersonal skill problem. It seems that most such problem is that you're screwed no matter what you choose. Kind of funny.

The thing is about drawing caricatures of Mohammad is that what we are doing is offending another culture. The act of violence analogy you drew to is out of context since no religion by any means has tried to justify it. But if the effects of us "Exercising our freedom" and drawing caricatures of Mohammad are to offend Muslims then why should we do it since we are upsetting people deeply as a result.

Insulting ones religion is different from highlighting political and cultural problems. I am saying we shouldn't try to offend people purposefully if all its going to do is upset them. However what I am in favor of is society examining the flaws of Islamic culture and ultimately our own Western culture as they have problems that need to be addressed. I don't really see how society being overly tolerant of religion will lead us to be tolerant of bad political views because the two are so different religion is the ideal of truth that is at the core of someone's identity whether with political views aren't as personal and deeply held. In addition their a universal expectation that society should debate politics something that is not the case of religion meaning it is unlikely that criticism of political beliefs will be shut down. Their is also an expectation that when you have political beliefs you need evidence to back them up such a thing does not exist for religion pointing out for why they are so different.

By contrast if we are intolerant of the Islamic faith and continue drawing caricatures additional problems may be created. We risk seeing an Islamic community that is alienated from us and Western society. The way to heal cultural flaws is not to relentlessly criticize a faith but to help integrate people and make them welcome to our society. As a result these people may see us in a positive light. I love secularism but their has to be limits on how much we can offend people.

I am not respecting Islam because of threats and violence, I just think that when you have a community in such outcry over having been offended that society sometimes needs to reexamine its actions. A similar case to when Autism Speaks portrayed Autism as a disease and a few people responded with threats of violence. Just because a few critics are prepared to go the extreme does not mean their isn't a genuine reason to take offence.

Last edited by Shahunshah on 08 Oct 2016, 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

AgusCayho I am interested in what you have to say but I could not understand the last paragraph you wrote. You could elaborate on it if you want to.

Edit: To be honest I am little confused as to the purpose of this thread. I told you what my advice was and you have tried to refute it and I have responded. It seems a little more like a debate rather than something that goes on in this subforum.

In all honesty I think some of your opinions are justified however I do think it is helpful to reach across to the other side to see what their perspectives are. It will allow you to understand one another in a way which is a bit better.

Respect is two way. Do you respect anyone AC? Just asking, since at present you are coming across as toying with people. Are you NT?! !

Honestly I don't think it is good to personalize this.

You are probably right. I do apologise for the NT reference, but as to the rest I'd best just avoid. Sorry for offence.

I have no idea what respect truly means. Actually I understand things better if there is a math model and no body define respect mathematically.

Let me try to "analyze" the problem

Perhaps respect is just feeling. Yap I can feel that. I am not a total aspie I guess. Maybe I just judge others too much instead of understanding them.

If people told me to "respect" their religion or die, I feel that I am not respected. I feel that the guy effectively say, "I am your overlord, this is what I want, do it or else, and I have this BS to make this don't look like what it really is, a simple coercion, and you got to believe this BS otherwise you die."

That's the way I see it. I think that's also the way social scientists see religion. How else can you explain government actively prosecuting heretics in all cultures.

But then there is this idea. The idea is that instead of responding with hatred and disgust I should try to understand the other persons' concern.

Just for the record, I do not personally have problem with muslims by the way, my problem is actually with Christianity, a religion I am closer to and have more conflicts too.

I feel, again, not reason, feel, that kow towing, or even trying to understand possible "well meaning" reasons behind threats will simply encourage more threat and more BS.

May be what I am doing is quite right. I should just stay away from overtly religious people to minimize conflict. However, in one case, my wife insisted that I give f**k too much and the divorce cost so much money. I felt that I can no longer just stay away and minimize problem. It's as if the correct response is disgust again.

I guess my current solution is to simply respect those who respect us and stay away from those who don't. If they are well meaning but we feel unrespected what should I do? My bro speak harshly to me, but honest. My lawyer and employee speak respectfully to me but stab me in the back.

So there isn't simple solutions either on that.

What do you think about strategic ignorance? Has that ever been useful?

Well I think you may not have the best view of religion as a whole at this point, the thing is I feel you want to imagine it as this illogical, irrational institution that enforces its beliefs on others. The thing is since you live in a secular country that is not the case. Religion nowadays serves the purpose of helping those who are in need or are in search of happiness.

The best way to discover whether you are judging rather than understanding would be to talk to a religious person themselves, I am talking about someone who genuinely feels for the religion that they are a part of. That way you will be able to understand the other side of the aisle better and ultimately you can make your judgments from that experience. Religion and Christianity you might figure could be good. You might imagine religion to be something that is threatening to people however I think that if you went into a church or a mosque for that matter you will say people who will be quite respectful towards you.

Ultimately however you personally look like you have allot going on in your life and maybe a discussion on Wrong Planet may not be the best idea. I will say this however, sometimes you might have to do things you don't like and maybe go against your values such as go to a church just to make a friend or someone you love happy and ultimately if you want to have a good relationship that isn't something to avoid. It shows respect for the other person.

I have not heard of strategic ignorance before but don't like the sound of it. Sometimes you got to imagine what life is like in someone else's shoes to avoid upsetting others not remain ignorant.

To me, respect means simply not physically attacking someone or their property, or robbing them.

The idea that respecting others gets you killed is a form of the Reductio_ad_absurdum fallacy, isn't it? You can ask for support in the Haven, but not for support for political bias, nor use the forum to proselytise political ideas. The support function in this forum is for emotional and psychological distress, personal issues, and so on. The promotion of political ideologies is out of place here, so cease and desist please. It's not a debate forum like PPR is. (Read the Haven guidelines above the thread here for further clarification if you don't yet understand).