Rigging the Election|DNC incited violence at Trump rallies

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Jacoby
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20 Oct 2016, 11:05 am

Aristophanes wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The main way they've attacked O'Keefe and others like him is thru laws that make it illegal to film someone without their knowledge and consent which basically outlaws sting journalism.

Those are privacy laws to protect every American, and they've been widely accepted by the majority for literally decades. They were in place well before O'Keefe spawned out whatever disgusting pit he came from-- so yes, he frequently breaks the law, thanks for admitting it.

Edit: And that's not even to mention breaking into an elected official's office attempting to steal information-- ala Watergate. What's the defense on that one, it's a-ok if I don't like the victim?


Those are not federal laws and it is not the law most states; California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Vermont, and Washington State.

Also nobody broke into anything, O'Keefe got convicted of the misdemeanor of 'entering a federal building under false pretenses.'



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20 Oct 2016, 11:32 am

Let's for a moment assume that there's something behind these charges. It seems wrong to me to pay people to start fights. Fighting words are a legitimate attack on another person, even though many Trump supporters will deny that in every case where those words are not used against them. I believe that words matter, and will stand by that. That's one end of the continuum of possible things behind these charges, and it seems plausible to me.

At the other end of the continuum is a plan to expose the mean-spiritedness of Trump supporters. That seems like a legitimate tactic to separate out the people who find public expressions of racism distasteful. It runs the risk of further radicalizing his core support, so I would oppose it as a campaign tactic. I can see how people could get really furious at some of the unprovoked vitriol and wonder how far the bigots would be willing to go if provoked.

In my opinion, the most plausible scenario is that people near the top of the campaign came up with something like my second paragraph and people at the local level tried to implement something like my first paragraph. Going to the White House is a big deal, but it's a routine treat for activists and proves nothing. It's laughable to imagine President Obama personally directing payments to homeless people with mental health problems in an effort to interfere with another political campaign.


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Aristophanes
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20 Oct 2016, 11:34 am

Jacoby wrote:
Those are not federal laws and it is not the law most states; California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Vermont, and Washington State.

Also nobody broke into anything, O'Keefe got convicted of the misdemeanor of 'entering a federal building under false pretenses.'


Correct, each state has DIFFERENT privacy laws, but every single one of them has them. Here in Colorado you have to notify someone if you're recording them-- I find that absolutely fair because you're moving a private conversation into a possibly public conversation. You would talk differently to a court than you would your friend, your parents, etc-- this isn't politics, this is human nature, thus the reason some states have adopted that standard.

As for the misdemeanor, ok so he pled down-- are you saying his intent was not to steal information from Mary Landrieu's office? If so, why was he entering a federal building under false pretenses in the first place? (Getting popcorn, brb).

Edit: Also, Donald only likes the flame-throwers "that don't get caught".



Jacoby
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20 Oct 2016, 12:01 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Those are not federal laws and it is not the law most states; California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Vermont, and Washington State.

Also nobody broke into anything, O'Keefe got convicted of the misdemeanor of 'entering a federal building under false pretenses.'


Correct, each state has DIFFERENT privacy laws, but every single one of them has them. Here in Colorado you have to notify someone if you're recording them-- I find that absolutely fair because you're moving a private conversation into a possibly public conversation. You would talk differently to a court than you would your friend, your parents, etc-- this isn't politics, this is human nature, thus the reason some states have adopted that standard.

As for the misdemeanor, ok so he pled down-- are you saying his intent was not to steal information from Mary Landrieu's office? If so, why was he entering a federal building under false pretenses in the first place? (Getting popcorn, brb).

Edit: Also, Donald only likes the flame-throwers "that don't get caught".


Unless they changed the law in your state that is not true that's not true, you only need to consent of one person and it seems they specifically make exceptions for journalists. What O'Keefe does would be completely legal in Colorado.



beneficii
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20 Oct 2016, 2:34 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Those are not federal laws and it is not the law most states; California, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Vermont, and Washington State.

Also nobody broke into anything, O'Keefe got convicted of the misdemeanor of 'entering a federal building under false pretenses.'


Correct, each state has DIFFERENT privacy laws, but every single one of them has them. Here in Colorado you have to notify someone if you're recording them-- I find that absolutely fair because you're moving a private conversation into a possibly public conversation. You would talk differently to a court than you would your friend, your parents, etc-- this isn't politics, this is human nature, thus the reason some states have adopted that standard.

As for the misdemeanor, ok so he pled down-- are you saying his intent was not to steal information from Mary Landrieu's office? If so, why was he entering a federal building under false pretenses in the first place? (Getting popcorn, brb).

Edit: Also, Donald only likes the flame-throwers "that don't get caught".


Unless they changed the law in your state that is not true that's not true, you only need to consent of one person and it seems they specifically make exceptions for journalists. What O'Keefe does would be completely legal in Colorado.


This is what happens when you don't do your homework and just go with your "gut feeling".


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Jacoby
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20 Oct 2016, 2:45 pm

beneficii wrote:
This is what happens when you don't do your homework and just go with your "gut feeling".


Are you talking to me or him?

this is what I found

Quote:
Recording or intercepting a telephone conversation, or any electronic communication, without the consent of at least one party to the conversation is a felony punishable by a fine of between $1,000 and $100,000 and one year to 18 months in jail. Colo. Rev. Stat. § 18-9-303. Recording a communication from a cordless telephone, however, is a misdemeanor. Colo. Rev. Stat. § 18-1.3-401. Using or disclosing information obtained through illegal wiretapping is a felony, if there is reason to know the information was obtained illegally. Colo. Rev. Stat § 18-9-304.

However, nothing in these statutes “shall be interpreted to prevent a news agency, or an employee thereof, from using the accepted tools and equipment of that news medium in the course of reporting or investigating a public and newsworthy event.” Colo. Rev. Stat. § 18-9-305.

Additionally, a person may use wiretapping or eavesdropping devices on his own premises for security or business purposes, if reasonable notice of the use of such devices is given to the public. Colo. Rev. Stat. § 18-9-305.



Aristophanes
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20 Oct 2016, 3:03 pm

Jacoby wrote:
beneficii wrote:
This is what happens when you don't do your homework and just go with your "gut feeling".


Are you talking to me or him?

this is what I found

Quote:
Recording or intercepting a telephone conversation, or any electronic communication, without the consent of at least one party to the conversation is a felony punishable by a fine of between $1,000 and $100,000 and one year to 18 months in jail. Colo. Rev. Stat. § 18-9-303. Recording a communication from a cordless telephone, however, is a misdemeanor. Colo. Rev. Stat. § 18-1.3-401. Using or disclosing information obtained through illegal wiretapping is a felony, if there is reason to know the information was obtained illegally. Colo. Rev. Stat § 18-9-304.

However, nothing in these statutes “shall be interpreted to prevent a news agency, or an employee thereof, from using the accepted tools and equipment of that news medium in the course of reporting or investigating a public and newsworthy event.” Colo. Rev. Stat. § 18-9-305.

Additionally, a person may use wiretapping or eavesdropping devices on his own premises for security or business purposes, if reasonable notice of the use of such devices is given to the public. Colo. Rev. Stat. § 18-9-305.


You are correct Jacoby, they did change the law-- to a single party consent as you are claiming. When I was in college, I had to take a journalism class for my degree and the professor harped on consent for three months, but apparently my info is out of date. Alas, a legal protection been stripped and I'm a little bummed about that.

Edit: all that said, perhaps you should inform James O'Keefe of the law in the states so he's not constantly breaking it.



Jacoby
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20 Oct 2016, 3:52 pm

It's just basic sting journalism I think, perhaps I watched too much local Dirty Dining segments and Chris Hansen so I think it's normal but I don't think it's wrong to break certain laws to expose the truth. I don't think people like Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden, Julian Assange, or Daniel Ellsberg should be punished for exposing lies and deceit. I don't think the 'To Catch A Predator' program is wrong in what it does/did as but that's exactly what they are doing getting those sick freaks off the street. The government uses the justification of 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' to justify it's mass surveillance so the I think it is only fair that it is turned back on them. The laws apply to them too altho our politicians like like to believe it doesn't.



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20 Oct 2016, 4:25 pm

Jacoby wrote:
It's just basic sting journalism I think

No, it's using editing and framing to make one thing look like another.
This is using the medium to tell lies that look truthful.

Would you be OK with someone doing this?
Jacoby with a few light edits wrote:
I watched too much Chelsea Manning, so I think it's normal to break certain laws. I think 'To Catch A Predator' is wrong in what it does. The government uses the justification of 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' to justify it's mass surveillance. I think it is only fair.

[disclaimer: This is not what Jacoby said, it's his words edited to represent things almost opposite to what he had expressed]
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2 ... 0a48093a78


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20 Oct 2016, 7:05 pm

Molly Ball, The Atlantic wrote:
If there's one thing we've learned about the things Donald Trump says, it is that they are not strategic. They are just whatever flew into his head based on the last conversation that he had, or his attempt to rationalize and explain to himself poll results that he doesn't like. This is all just Trump trying to grapple with an outcome that he doesn't like and doesn't want to accept, and he doesn't really have a filter, and he doesn't have someone feeding him talking points that he ingests and then regurgitates. This is just the pure mind, the pure id of Donald Trump.


The video is here
http://www.msnbc.com/mtp-daily/watch/ri ... 9463107672

Also, here's evidence of illegal fundraising activities by the Trump campaign
Fortune story


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Last edited by jrjones9933 on 20 Oct 2016, 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aristophanes
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20 Oct 2016, 7:38 pm

Jacoby wrote:
It's just basic sting journalism I think, perhaps I watched too much local Dirty Dining segments and Chris Hansen so I think it's normal but I don't think it's wrong to break certain laws to expose the truth.


If you're breaking the laws that society has agreed upon, how can that society trust your version of the truth?



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20 Oct 2016, 7:48 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
It's just basic sting journalism I think, perhaps I watched too much local Dirty Dining segments and Chris Hansen so I think it's normal but I don't think it's wrong to break certain laws to expose the truth.


If you're breaking the laws that society has agreed upon, how can that society trust your version of the truth?

I find that absurd. I like whistleblowers, and believe they deserve our support if they expose serious wrongdoing.


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20 Oct 2016, 8:08 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
It's just basic sting journalism I think, perhaps I watched too much local Dirty Dining segments and Chris Hansen so I think it's normal but I don't think it's wrong to break certain laws to expose the truth.


If you're breaking the laws that society has agreed upon, how can that society trust your version of the truth?

I find that absurd. I like whistleblowers, and believe they deserve our support if they expose serious wrongdoing.


I agree. It's also good to distinguish between whistleblowers and hitmen.

Also, isn't it funny how people find guilt by association deplorable in one context but totally cool in another! :D


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Jacoby
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20 Oct 2016, 8:19 pm

Whine all you want, the people on these videos said what they said. Bob Creamer is a guy that does this stuff, he's a convicted felon and obvious very close to the very top of the Democratic party. It seems obvious that Hillary was behind the disruptions at Trump events, they have the FEC filings for plane tickets and payment to these agitators who admitted what they did on tape. The Democratic 'plumber' Aaron Minter aka Aaron Black is seen all over and is pretty clear in what he does.



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20 Oct 2016, 8:21 pm

Here's some analysis from a Los Angeles prosecutor on the amusing history of Democrats refusing to accept the results of elections:

Guess Who Else Refused to Accept the Results of a Presidential Election?

Americans face a stunning situation this morning: a presidential candidate who refuses to accept the results of a presidential election.

I’m speaking, of course, of Hillary Clinton.

As Jim Geraghty notes in National Review this morning, Hillary told fundraisers in 2002 that George W. Bush was “selected, not elected” in 2000.

If that phrase sounds familiar, it’s because it’s been a recurring theme for Democrats for almost 16 years now. It’s a mantra that has been repeated by everyone from Joe Biden (who said Al Gore “was elected president of the United States of America”) to Jimmy Carter (who said there is “no doubt in my mind that Gore won the election”) to Jonathan Chait (who wrote a piece titled “Yes, Bush v. Gore Did Steal the Election”).


http://patterico.com/2016/10/20/guess-w ... -election/

If it weren't for their double standards, they'd have no standards at all. :D


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20 Oct 2016, 8:29 pm

After a final recount showed Gore won Florida, and a Supreme Court decision that the court declared should not be used as precedent, we had a problem. Still do.

Your guy has a problem because he's losing.


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