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YippySkippy
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23 Oct 2016, 11:14 am

definition of a TERF (I had to look it up):

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TERF is an acronym for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. Sometimes, "exclusionary" is expanded as "eliminationist" or "exterminationist" instead to more accurately convey the degree to which TERFs advocate for harm towards trans people, specifically trans people who were coercively assigned male at birth.



I am not a radical feminist, and I don't advocate harm towards trans people. I specifically stated earlier that I believe everyone should be free to live however they see fit.



TheAP
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23 Oct 2016, 11:15 am

YippySkippy wrote:
The gender binary thing is human-constructed nonsense, though. Boys like cars and girls like dolls, etc. is just culturally imposed, imo. And now we're telling people that if they don't fit society's made-up baloney standards for their sex, then they're transgender. As opposed to trying to get rid of the baloney so that everyone can just be people and not think everything about their personality is (or should be) related to whether they have a penis or a vagina. There is a good argument to be made that the concept of transgenderism is an attempt to prop up the patriarchy by re-categorizing anyone who doesn't conform to its narrow, established gender roles (and thus undermines the legitimacy those roles). For example, if a woman likes fixing cars then it must be she's actually a man - thus preserving the idea that "real" women don't fix cars.


Except that being transgender isn't defined by gender roles. Trans women can be masculine and trans men can be feminine. It's usually based on feeling inside like they are another gender, or on experiencing dysphoria about being in the body they're in.



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23 Oct 2016, 2:52 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
definition of a TERF (I had to look it up):

Quote:
TERF is an acronym for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. Sometimes, "exclusionary" is expanded as "eliminationist" or "exterminationist" instead to more accurately convey the degree to which TERFs advocate for harm towards trans people, specifically trans people who were coercively assigned male at birth.



I am not a radical feminist, and I don't advocate harm towards trans people. I specifically stated earlier that I believe everyone should be free to live however they see fit.


That's an extreme definition, as it states. The usual definition, the one that I am familiar with, means second wave feminist who does not accept trans women in the feminist movement because anyone born without a vagina is "not a real woman." Either way, not accepting trans women in the movement is not what I want to be about or be associated with. Anyone who identifies as feminine or female, as well as allies who identify as any other gender or non-gendered/non-binary are welcome in the movement, in my book--this is one of the reasons why I think of myself as an intersectional feminist and don't agree with the TERF mindset. I don't think you have to be born with a vagina to be a woman or to be a feminist.


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Pravda
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23 Oct 2016, 2:53 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
Boys like cars and girls like dolls, etc. is just culturally imposed, imo.

Gender dysphoria is a lot more complicated than being a girl who likes cars or similar.

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And now we're telling people that if they don't fit society's made-up baloney standards for their sex, then they're transgender. As opposed to trying to get rid of the baloney so that everyone can just be people and not think everything about their personality is (or should be) related to whether they have a penis or a vagina.

I'd be happy to be rid of the gender binary. As it stands, we live in a society with one; I don't think it helps anyone or is accurate to deny that gender is something that exists as a social fact in our society. Given that, helping people to live in a way that more accurately fits their psychological makeup seems like a good thing to me.

Also, this weakens the gender binary. It explicitly divorces gender from whether you have a penis or a vagina, and arguments for helping transpersons generally rest on the fact that gender is inherently a fluid/spectrum-based rather than binary thing which does not conform to bodily functions. Masculinity and femininity are therefore seen as traits independent of what your body is. Meanwhile, this progressive shift opens room for "third gender"-type identifications that haven't traditionally been seen in the West. The rise of the "genderqueer" identification, linked at the hip with the broader trans-rights movement, is proof of that.

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For example, if a woman likes fixing cars then it must be she's actually a man - thus preserving the idea that "real" women don't fix cars.

Again, gender dysphoria goes well beyond "I'm a girl who likes fixing cars." It's disconnect between how someone psychologically feels and the social role ascribed to someone's body.


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23 Oct 2016, 4:06 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
The gender binary thing is human-constructed nonsense, though. Boys like cars and girls like dolls, etc. is just culturally imposed, imo. And now we're telling people that if they don't fit society's made-up baloney standards for their sex, then they're transgender. As opposed to trying to get rid of the baloney so that everyone can just be people and not think everything about their personality is (or should be) related to whether they have a penis or a vagina. There is a good argument to be made that the concept of transgenderism is an attempt to prop up the patriarchy by re-categorizing anyone who doesn't conform to its narrow, established gender roles (and thus undermines the legitimacy those roles). For example, if a woman likes fixing cars then it must be she's actually a man - thus preserving the idea that "real" women don't fix cars.


Whether someone is transgender mainly depends on physical dysphoria, rather than stereotypes. Sure, it is common for transgender people to fit the stereotypes of the opposite sex, but that alone does not make them transgender. But perhaps that is a common misunderstanding.

Someone is transgender when they feel that they were born into the body of the wrong sex. That is not human-constructed. It typically causes a severe amount of distress, and it is classified as a disorder.

There are even tomboyish transgender females and girly transgender males.


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24 Oct 2016, 1:52 pm

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Masculinity and femininity are therefore seen as traits independent of what your body is.


In my view, all aspects of what is considered masculine or feminine behavior are social constructs. It's one of the reasons, I believe, why aspies so often have trouble fitting into the gender binary system. That system is just an extension of the unspoken social rules and values that we sometimes don't understand and to which we sometimes don't care to adhere.
Though, if a person acknowledges that masculinity and femininity are traits independent of the body then what is the point in that person undergoing surgery to resemble the opposite sex? It still seems to me like it's a bowing to societal pressure, an attempt to make oneself appear the way society expects. As I said, I respect peoples' rights to do whatever they want with their own bodies, but I think it is sad if the motivation for surgery is external.



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24 Oct 2016, 2:13 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
In my view, all aspects of what is considered masculine or feminine behavior are social constructs.

The trans/genderqueer rights movement would agree. How one personally feels, whether someone identifies with masculine or feminine archetypes, is disconnected from one's body.

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Though, if a person acknowledges that masculinity and femininity are traits independent of the body then what is the point in that person undergoing surgery to resemble the opposite sex?

Some transpeople undergo genital surgery, some don't. Most do undergo hormone treatment to at least be able to "pass" as their identified gender.

Because as-is, we live in a society with a (thankfully weakening) gender binary, which is the source of peoples' real feeling of dysphoria. Being able to be treated the way one feels is a colossal step forward. Those who choose to undergo genital surgery are people whose dysphoria wouldn't go away unless that also extends to the realm of sexuality.

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It still seems to me like it's a bowing to societal pressure, an attempt to make oneself appear the way society expects.

It is in the sense that the gender binary is a current fact of our social existence. Given this, people whose gender does not match their sex live unhappy lives unless they can pass for their gender of identification. Social life isn't something they can just wish away because the gender binary vanishing would be even better for them. This helps them attain a happy life and paves the way for a non-essentialist view of the sex-identity relationship, though, so there's a big dose of subversion in it. The adjacent genderqueer movement is a sign of this going even further.


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24 Oct 2016, 6:17 pm

I agree with what you're saying, but I think the genderqueer movement is a more accurate representation of natural humanity. Transgender people still accept the binary system - they just want to switch sides, so to speak. I've never known a woman who was entirely "girly" or a man who was completely "manly". I think, if anything, masculine and feminine is a spectrum, like autism and sexuality.....everything's a spectrum!



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25 Oct 2016, 2:47 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
I agree with what you're saying, but I think the genderqueer movement is a more accurate representation of natural humanity.

Sure, I think eventually the gender binary may be weakened to the point where the term is meaningless. If so, that's a good thing for free and open self-expression.

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I've never known a woman who was entirely "girly" or a man who was completely "manly".

Transpeople don't usually think in those terms either. They'd usually phrase it as "more feminine than masculine" or vice versa, which matches their brain operating more like the average member of their identified gender. They won't try to live up to a stereotype of femininity or masculinity, they'll just be themselves, which comes out behaviorally like a statistically average girl or guy.

Generally, people who strive to be a stereotype of femininity (for example) are transvestites/sissy fetishists instead, and identify as male.

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I think, if anything, masculine and feminine is a spectrum, like autism and sexuality.....everything's a spectrum!

Agreed, for sure.


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25 Oct 2016, 2:51 pm

Genderqueer people are still transgender.



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25 Oct 2016, 3:39 pm

^Are they? :? Well, now I'm all confused. There's too many labels and names in human society.


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25 Oct 2016, 4:42 pm

^Yeah, transgender means that you don't identify with the gender you were assigned at birth.



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28 Oct 2016, 7:18 pm

pddtwinmom wrote:
I think the current thinking is that "woman" is the definition of your sex (what parts you have) and "female" is the definition of your gender (what sex you feel like inside). And "orientation" is what sex you're attracted to. I think.

If you've already made the decision to transition, I don't quite understand the question, since you've already decided based on your personal criteria that you're a woman.


Y'see, the thing is, I identify myself as a tomboy girl (with a girly side) and since I am expressing myself in a way that, to me, sometimes seems self-contradiction to what I ultimately desire (to physically and socially become a woman), I asked this question in hopes of expanding my understanding of what I and others consider to be "feminine".

But Y'know what? You're right, This question seems kinda pointless when you take into account my aforementioned tomboy attitude. I already have my own definition of what it means to be a girl. :roll:

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Are you trying to figure out how to fit into society as a member of the opposite sex? How to be more attractive to a potential partner?


yes, yes, YES!! ! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY YES SO THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT I WANT TO BE A WOMAN!! !

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28 Oct 2016, 9:05 pm

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Are you trying to figure out how to fit into society as a member of the opposite sex? How to be more attractive to a potential partner?


I think this is intended as an either/or question. You can't answer it with "yes". :lol:



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28 Oct 2016, 9:39 pm

The_Face_of_Boo
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03 Nov 2016, 3:25 am

Chromosome XX, and that's it, at least at birth.

Woman/girl means female human, but the OP is extending the meaning of the word to something...weird.



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is it her physical traits?


Only the vagina.

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is it her helplessness to act or defend herself against an instance of rape or violence?


So a woman who gets good in martial arts or buys a gun will suddenly grow a penis? :lol: