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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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28 Oct 2016, 2:06 pm

If I am not considered equal, the odds are stacked against me and the burdens and constraints on what I can do will be numerous and unending. I can never be truly free without equality, as in people thinking I am worthy because I am born human, same as them. How can anyone be free without equality?



Jacoby
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28 Oct 2016, 3:18 pm

Equality is kind of is misused term I think as no one is truly 'equal' as we can obviously see from the world around us, the essence of freedom is equity.



looniverse
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28 Oct 2016, 3:29 pm

Equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

We aspire to equality before the law, so that each individual has an equal voice and equal rights in our system of government.

Everyone has different abilities, and there is no way to guarantee equal outcomes. I recommend reading Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. It's a very short story that helps explain the concept.

Equality and freedom are inversely proportional. Using government to make people equal makes them less free. Letting people be completely free makes them less equal.

It all comes down to what you value more.



adifferentname
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28 Oct 2016, 3:50 pm

Power is the essence of freedom. Equality is one way of distributing power.

Though not necessarily 'equally'.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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28 Oct 2016, 4:16 pm

looniverse wrote:
Equality of opportunity or equality of outcome?

We aspire to equality before the law, so that each individual has an equal voice and equal rights in our system of government.

Everyone has different abilities, and there is no way to guarantee equal outcomes. I recommend reading Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut. It's a very short story that helps explain the concept.

Equality and freedom are inversely proportional. Using government to make people equal makes them less free. Letting people be completely free makes them less equal.

It all comes down to what you value more.



Equality of being. You are no better than I and I am no better than you. Therefore, we exist as equals. It has nothing to do with outcomes and every thing to do with humanity.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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28 Oct 2016, 4:17 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Equality is kind of is misused term I think as no one is truly 'equal' as we can obviously see from the world around us, the essence of freedom is equity.



Equity as in what you own?



adifferentname
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28 Oct 2016, 4:39 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Equality is kind of is misused term I think as no one is truly 'equal' as we can obviously see from the world around us, the essence of freedom is equity.



Equity as in what you own?


Equity also means parity of fairness or esteem.



techstepgenr8tion
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30 Oct 2016, 4:26 pm

Really I don't think you'll find absolute freedom anywhere - unless you're squatting in a national park and hunting wild game with a bow and arrow.

What you have, living in a society, are different kinds of rule sets based on which society you're in and which values are seen as most salient. We tend to see equality of opportunity as the most fair and sensible way to go, just that obviously there's no legislation that can make someone free of their genetics - ie. if their genes say they'll never be able to be a professional sports figure, a NASA scientist, or a famous musician there's no legislation that can make a person's wishes come true in that regard; that's just life. Really I think that's why any argument in favor of equality of outcome fails - it attempts to turn the topography of the real inside out to fit our preferences.

If you're referring to what's on the cutting edge right now - it's getting tougher to tell at this point, with the remaining inequality arguments that are on the table, how much of them are natural vs. cultural and if so which to what percent. Freedom to be educated, grow and achieve as we choose, and pursue happiness seems like its a gold standard for a happy, successful, and stable society. Regardless I think equality in the eyes of the law is about the only form of equality that can be guaranteed - past that the favorable arguments for enforced equality start to diminish, particularly once it's agreed that historical wrongs and inequalities have been largely worked out.


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30 Oct 2016, 4:47 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
How can anyone be free without equality?

People create their OWN freedom----for instance, I don't need to be equal to anyone; THAT'S freedom.









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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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30 Oct 2016, 5:00 pm

I think with science we might reach a point where we can figure out what a young person wishes to do careerwise and provide them with treatments and whatnot that will help them be great at whatever it is. I would venture to guess one day that will be reality. Dreams really will come true. For everyone.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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30 Oct 2016, 5:15 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
How can anyone be free without equality?

People create their OWN freedom----for instance, I don't need to be equal to anyone; THAT'S freedom.


If they view you as inferior, they will constantly chisel away at your existence.



Campin_Cat
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30 Oct 2016, 5:35 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
How can anyone be free without equality?

People create their OWN freedom----for instance, I don't need to be equal to anyone; THAT'S freedom.

If they view you as inferior, they will constantly chisel away at your existence.

Not unless I LET them. If I let what they say, for instance, roll-off-my-back, they will have achieved NOTHING.





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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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30 Oct 2016, 7:32 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
How can anyone be free without equality?

People create their OWN freedom----for instance, I don't need to be equal to anyone; THAT'S freedom.

If they view you as inferior, they will constantly chisel away at your existence.

Not unless I LET them. If I let what they say, for instance, roll-off-my-back, they will have achieved NOTHING.

What they say is bad enough but that isn't all they will do. It's much more insidious than mere words.



TheSpectrum
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30 Oct 2016, 7:39 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
How can anyone be free without equality?

People create their OWN freedom----for instance, I don't need to be equal to anyone; THAT'S freedom.

If they view you as inferior, they will constantly chisel away at your existence.

Not unless I LET them. If I let what they say, for instance, roll-off-my-back, they will have achieved NOTHING.

What they say is bad enough but that isn't all they will do. It's much more insidious than mere words.
Campin's mind (while you and I are not in tune with it) is most definitely free IMO. Our notions of personal freedom and liberty are unlikely to change that.

If we are each to determine on an individual level our specification of freedom then there will come a point where entitlement enters the fray and not everyone will be free. Absolute freedom is also impossible in a civilised world. It would lead to chaos and anarchy. Lines have to be drawn somewhere (law, governance, order). We should all be free to equally aspire, but should not expect the same results as one another.


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techstepgenr8tion
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30 Oct 2016, 8:58 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I think with science we might reach a point where we can figure out what a young person wishes to do careerwise and provide them with treatments and whatnot that will help them be great at whatever it is. I would venture to guess one day that will be reality. Dreams really will come true. For everyone.


I'd agree that if there's any sort of national competition for production and trade the HR handling of the American education world is abysmal and its a place where we, and I'm sure a lot of countries, could make huge strides in efficiency.


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auntblabby
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30 Oct 2016, 9:12 pm

i am effectively curbed in my freedom to walk certain places in my neighborhood as I wish to avoid the foul catcalls and threats from the yahoos therein who can't stand the thought that I live among them or that I am alive in the first place.