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Ganondox
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05 Nov 2016, 1:45 am

So, the typical response is that neutering a pet is the right thing to do because otherwise it will get pregnant, then there will be too many of that pet, and their descendants will be miserable because overpopulation. However, neutering just comes across of a fundamentally immoral act to me, and I've figured out why: it's the nature of animals to reproduce, they WANT to reproduce, and you're denying that from them in a very invasive manner by altering their anatomy. It's wrong to do to a person, so should it also be wrong to do to an animal? However, if the animals breed out of control their descendants won't be able to breed due to a lack of resources, so that's no good by much of the same reasoning. So how is this ethical dilemma resolved?


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05 Nov 2016, 3:06 am

Ethical dilemmas cannot be resolved :twisted:

Look, I get it where you're coming from, I don't neuter my pets, although it's for somewhat different reasons and they are not "house pets". The reality is that animals kept in the house (only taken out for walks etc) need to be neutered both for their own comfort and their owner's.

Keep in mind that turning animals into pets, particularly those kept in cages, or not allowed to go outside and interact with their kind, is already going against their nature in more then one way and basically turned them into animated toys. Neutering is merely the cherry on top.


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05 Nov 2016, 3:09 am

BenderRodriguez wrote:
Ethical dilemmas cannot be resolved :twisted:

Look, I get it where you're coming from, I don't neuter my pets, although it's for somewhat different reasons and they are not "house pets". The reality is that animals kept in the house (only taken out for walks etc) need to be neutered both for their own comfort and their owner's.

Keep in mind that turning animals into pets, particularly those kept in cages, or not allowed to go outside and interact with their kind, is already going against their nature in more then one way and basically turned them into animated toys. Neutering is merely the cherry on top.


Well what about sterilization as a means of population control for wild animals? Sure it's more ethical than just outright killing them, but it is still without problem?


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05 Nov 2016, 3:28 am

It depends what particular set of ethics you choose, I'm sure. It can easily be argued both ways.

I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to understand all the implications, but I know the behaviour of domesticated animals changes after sterilisation (and also the behaviour of their own kind towards them can change). I'm not sure to what extent the quality of life and survival chances of the wild ones will be affected by it. So I don't necessarily think it would be more ethical then outright killing them. I've seen too much of the world to think that any life is better then no life.


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05 Nov 2016, 12:53 pm

This is an interesting topic. Since there are so many stray animals in many cities, especially dogs and cats, its more merciful to sterilize than have their pups and kittens facing a life of deprivation. I've seen many a stray in the poor areas of our city and don't wish it on any animal.

For them to have any quality of life it's essential that their owners have sufficient resources to give them the best in food and healthcare, as well as love and attention. Poorer people can't generally afford sterilization so there are programmes to offer free or subsidized services in some areas.

It would be a good thing to sterilize certain wild animals rather than cull, but I'm not sure how practical it is - depends on the type / size of the animal and whether it's possible to capture them and have a qualified vet to perform the op.


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06 Nov 2016, 4:25 pm

The ethical dilemma isn't neutering; it's owning an animal in the first place. To be clear, "animals" refers to all animals, humans included.

People should not treat animals as if they were property. If no one owns an animal, no one will have to consider neutering an animal. No one's reproductive capabilities should be or need to be in anyone else's hands. Some types of animals that are kept as pets wouldn't even exist if people hadn't selectively bred and domesticated them; in other words, people have largely created this "dilemma" themselves.

Nature will take care of reproduction, the same as with all other animals. If they over-populate any given area, some will starve, re-balancing the population. Humans just need to stay out of it.



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06 Nov 2016, 5:05 pm

These are the same arguments we have about human overpopulation, promiscuity, and eugenics.



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07 Nov 2016, 3:02 am

I grew up with a ferret shelter in my house, and a massive array of critters. Even now, I have a lot of pets. A starling, a sparrow, 3 parrots, 10 rats, 2 dogs, 8 chickens and a turkey, and a rabbit. The only ones we didn't rescue were 5 of the chickens, 1 of the dogs, and the rabbit. I love animals. (I love my starling the very most though, he is the child I will never have <.< .)

Fixing pets is a necessary tool. Our ferrets were always fixed, as to prevent certain reproductive cancers and other diseases, as well as controlling numbers. We ran into countless situations of hoarders, who just let their pets roam free and procreate, and couldn't possibly take care of them, feed them, keep them healthy. it is extremely sad to see such unnecessary neglect, and it happens too often.

If our rabbit was a male, we would have fixed it to prevent certain behaviors such as marking- however, she is a female, and we had to spay her because it can extend her life by up to 8 years, because rabbits were made to reproduce often, and constantly, they are extremely prone to cancers in their reproductive organs.

Our rats are not fixed, seeing as it will not extend their lifespan enough to be worth the cost, and there was simply so many, the best option is to keep the males and females separate. Some people will fix them when they are young, and they want to keep a few girls and boys together. I don't see an issue with this. It does extend their lifespans on average by 33%.

Birds it is simply unnecessary, and far too dangerous. Our dogs are both fixed- I would say this is a personal choice though. You should not breed any animal unless you are a professional- accidents happen I know. But mutts are not necessarily healthier, this is a common misconception. A mutt with parents who both have different issues, is a mutt that carries genes for either problem. It is far more beneficial to breed intelligently, and aim for healthy genetics overall. There are enough dogs in the world to go around, in fact there are too many, and it is really sad.


It depends on the animal for me. I don't necessarily see the moral consequence of it, however. Granted, I am of the opinion that human reproduction should be regulated to an extent, which is a bit of an unpopular opinion. Just because we are "made" to do something, doesn't mean we should. But I get where you are coming from. The difference between us, and our pets, is that we can make the informed decision to not have children, whereas our pets do not have the mental capability to make the distinction towards that kind of thing. It is an interesting topic, though.

Apologies if I seem all over the place, my mind is in a dozen places at once!



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07 Nov 2016, 5:13 am

starkid wrote:
The ethical dilemma isn't neutering; it's owning an animal in the first place. To be clear, "animals" refers to all animals, humans included.

People should not treat animals as if they were property. If no one owns an animal, no one will have to consider neutering an animal. No one's reproductive capabilities should be or need to be in anyone else's hands. Some types of animals that are kept as pets wouldn't even exist if people hadn't selectively bred and domesticated them; in other words, people have largely created this "dilemma" themselves.

Nature will take care of reproduction, the same as with all other animals. If they over-populate any given area, some will starve, re-balancing the population. Humans just need to stay out of it.


But as I mentioned previously, there is also sterilization campaigns for wild animals.


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07 Nov 2016, 5:17 am

Farunel wrote:
I grew up with a ferret shelter in my house, and a massive array of critters. Even now, I have a lot of pets. A starling, a sparrow, 3 parrots, 10 rats, 2 dogs, 8 chickens and a turkey, and a rabbit. The only ones we didn't rescue were 5 of the chickens, 1 of the dogs, and the rabbit. I love animals. (I love my starling the very most though, he is the child I will never have <.< .)

Fixing pets is a necessary tool. Our ferrets were always fixed, as to prevent certain reproductive cancers and other diseases, as well as controlling numbers. We ran into countless situations of hoarders, who just let their pets roam free and procreate, and couldn't possibly take care of them, feed them, keep them healthy. it is extremely sad to see such unnecessary neglect, and it happens too often.

If our rabbit was a male, we would have fixed it to prevent certain behaviors such as marking- however, she is a female, and we had to spay her because it can extend her life by up to 8 years, because rabbits were made to reproduce often, and constantly, they are extremely prone to cancers in their reproductive organs.

Our rats are not fixed, seeing as it will not extend their lifespan enough to be worth the cost, and there was simply so many, the best option is to keep the males and females separate. Some people will fix them when they are young, and they want to keep a few girls and boys together. I don't see an issue with this. It does extend their lifespans on average by 33%.

Birds it is simply unnecessary, and far too dangerous. Our dogs are both fixed- I would say this is a personal choice though. You should not breed any animal unless you are a professional- accidents happen I know. But mutts are not necessarily healthier, this is a common misconception. A mutt with parents who both have different issues, is a mutt that carries genes for either problem. It is far more beneficial to breed intelligently, and aim for healthy genetics overall. There are enough dogs in the world to go around, in fact there are too many, and it is really sad.


It depends on the animal for me. I don't necessarily see the moral consequence of it, however. Granted, I am of the opinion that human reproduction should be regulated to an extent, which is a bit of an unpopular opinion. Just because we are "made" to do something, doesn't mean we should. But I get where you are coming from. The difference between us, and our pets, is that we can make the informed decision to not have children, whereas our pets do not have the mental capability to make the distinction towards that kind of thing. It is an interesting topic, though.

Apologies if I seem all over the place, my mind is in a dozen places at once!


First, ferrets are an interesting case because of their peculiarities of being in heat. But more over, you speak a lot about extending life expectancy. Is extended life expectancy necessarily worth the cost of losing part of you?


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07 Nov 2016, 8:40 am

Dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years to be emotionally dependent on humans. That's why they fawn over us and love us even if we treat them badly. They are victims of eugenics at this point. I feel sorry for my dog - her whole world revolves around whether I think she's a "good dog" or a "bad dog".
Compared to that, neutering is fairly benign. Remember that dogs don't know they've been neutered, and the neutering greatly reduces or eliminates their desire to mate. So they're not really missing anything.



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07 Nov 2016, 11:56 am

Ganondox wrote:
Farunel wrote:
I grew up with a ferret shelter in my house, and a massive array of critters. Even now, I have a lot of pets. A starling, a sparrow, 3 parrots, 10 rats, 2 dogs, 8 chickens and a turkey, and a rabbit. The only ones we didn't rescue were 5 of the chickens, 1 of the dogs, and the rabbit. I love animals. (I love my starling the very most though, he is the child I will never have <.< .)

Fixing pets is a necessary tool. Our ferrets were always fixed, as to prevent certain reproductive cancers and other diseases, as well as controlling numbers. We ran into countless situations of hoarders, who just let their pets roam free and procreate, and couldn't possibly take care of them, feed them, keep them healthy. it is extremely sad to see such unnecessary neglect, and it happens too often.

If our rabbit was a male, we would have fixed it to prevent certain behaviors such as marking- however, she is a female, and we had to spay her because it can extend her life by up to 8 years, because rabbits were made to reproduce often, and constantly, they are extremely prone to cancers in their reproductive organs.

Our rats are not fixed, seeing as it will not extend their lifespan enough to be worth the cost, and there was simply so many, the best option is to keep the males and females separate. Some people will fix them when they are young, and they want to keep a few girls and boys together. I don't see an issue with this. It does extend their lifespans on average by 33%.

Birds it is simply unnecessary, and far too dangerous. Our dogs are both fixed- I would say this is a personal choice though. You should not breed any animal unless you are a professional- accidents happen I know. But mutts are not necessarily healthier, this is a common misconception. A mutt with parents who both have different issues, is a mutt that carries genes for either problem. It is far more beneficial to breed intelligently, and aim for healthy genetics overall. There are enough dogs in the world to go around, in fact there are too many, and it is really sad.


It depends on the animal for me. I don't necessarily see the moral consequence of it, however. Granted, I am of the opinion that human reproduction should be regulated to an extent, which is a bit of an unpopular opinion. Just because we are "made" to do something, doesn't mean we should. But I get where you are coming from. The difference between us, and our pets, is that we can make the informed decision to not have children, whereas our pets do not have the mental capability to make the distinction towards that kind of thing. It is an interesting topic, though.

Apologies if I seem all over the place, my mind is in a dozen places at once!


First, ferrets are an interesting case because of their peculiarities of being in heat. But more over, you speak a lot about extending life expectancy. Is extended life expectancy necessarily worth the cost of losing part of you?



Worth not dying in pain because you have several tumors in your abdomen that will leech all of your energy and life force, and end up weighing more than even you? I would certainly say so. Even in nature, living is the priority over your own offspring with most animals. Most animals, when faced with certain death for their offspring and themselves, will choose to save themselves.

We have this 3 1/2 year old rat, she is not spayed. She's going to die soon, she has massive tumors, that are almost bigger than her. She's had them for well over a month now, and normally we would have put down such a case, because they will normally stop eating and become resigned. She has not, she wants nothing more than to continue living, she almost acts as though nothing is wrong. Of course, if she displays signs of pain, we will have to end it. But even now, she is doing all she can to continue living, we thought she would be gone weeks ago. She's iron-willed as hell, and wants to live.

With our rabbit, she would have had an 83% chance to ALREADY have ovarian cancer, and she would be dead soon. Because she is spayed, she will get to enjoy living for another 8-9 years. Life over future offspring? Life, there is no doubt in my mind. Especially when it is the difference between 2 and 10 years.



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07 Nov 2016, 1:38 pm

starkid wrote:
The ethical dilemma isn't neutering; it's owning an animal in the first place. To be clear, "animals" refers to all animals, humans included.

People should not treat animals as if they were property. If no one owns an animal, no one will have to consider neutering an animal. No one's reproductive capabilities should be or need to be in anyone else's hands. Some types of animals that are kept as pets wouldn't even exist if people hadn't selectively bred and domesticated them; in other words, people have largely created this "dilemma" themselves.

Nature will take care of reproduction, the same as with all other animals. If they over-populate any given area, some will starve, re-balancing the population. Humans just need to stay out of it.


Nope.

Allowing animals to breed out of control is simply cruel as it causes much suffering and death.

I own a dog, and she has been neutered. I don't feel bad about owning a dog, or having her fixed, because she is a dog, not a small human in a fur suit. Seriously, anthropomorphism has caused more mistreatment of animals than simply acknowledging the differing mental capabilities and abilities that non-human animals posses in contrast to humans. My dog may not be "property," but she does not have "rights," and I am well within my ethical sphere to make decisions for her well-being with my superior reasoning capacity.


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07 Nov 2016, 1:42 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Seriously, anthropomorphism has caused more mistreatment of animals than simply acknowledging the differing mental capabilities and abilities that non-human animals posses in contrast to humans.


Amen


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08 Nov 2016, 2:50 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
starkid wrote:
The ethical dilemma isn't neutering; it's owning an animal in the first place. To be clear, "animals" refers to all animals, humans included.

People should not treat animals as if they were property. If no one owns an animal, no one will have to consider neutering an animal. No one's reproductive capabilities should be or need to be in anyone else's hands. Some types of animals that are kept as pets wouldn't even exist if people hadn't selectively bred and domesticated them; in other words, people have largely created this "dilemma" themselves.

Nature will take care of reproduction, the same as with all other animals. If they over-populate any given area, some will starve, re-balancing the population. Humans just need to stay out of it.


Nope.

Allowing animals to breed out of control is simply cruel as it causes much suffering and death.

I own a dog, and she has been neutered. I don't feel bad about owning a dog, or having her fixed, because she is a dog, not a small human in a fur suit. Seriously, anthropomorphism has caused more mistreatment of animals than simply acknowledging the differing mental capabilities and abilities that non-human animals posses in contrast to humans. My dog may not be "property," but she does not have "rights," and I am well within my ethical sphere to make decisions for her well-being with my superior reasoning capacity.


You clearly don't know how to ethics. Saying "is simply cruel as it causes much suffering and death" doesn't cut it. Merely living causes much suffering and death, much more so than not living. Does that means it's wrong to live.

Also, what if a person is perceived as having inferior reasoning capacity? Does that mean it's ethical to sterilize them?

Farunel wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
Farunel wrote:
I grew up with a ferret shelter in my house, and a massive array of critters. Even now, I have a lot of pets. A starling, a sparrow, 3 parrots, 10 rats, 2 dogs, 8 chickens and a turkey, and a rabbit. The only ones we didn't rescue were 5 of the chickens, 1 of the dogs, and the rabbit. I love animals. (I love my starling the very most though, he is the child I will never have <.< .)

Fixing pets is a necessary tool. Our ferrets were always fixed, as to prevent certain reproductive cancers and other diseases, as well as controlling numbers. We ran into countless situations of hoarders, who just let their pets roam free and procreate, and couldn't possibly take care of them, feed them, keep them healthy. it is extremely sad to see such unnecessary neglect, and it happens too often.

If our rabbit was a male, we would have fixed it to prevent certain behaviors such as marking- however, she is a female, and we had to spay her because it can extend her life by up to 8 years, because rabbits were made to reproduce often, and constantly, they are extremely prone to cancers in their reproductive organs.

Our rats are not fixed, seeing as it will not extend their lifespan enough to be worth the cost, and there was simply so many, the best option is to keep the males and females separate. Some people will fix them when they are young, and they want to keep a few girls and boys together. I don't see an issue with this. It does extend their lifespans on average by 33%.

Birds it is simply unnecessary, and far too dangerous. Our dogs are both fixed- I would say this is a personal choice though. You should not breed any animal unless you are a professional- accidents happen I know. But mutts are not necessarily healthier, this is a common misconception. A mutt with parents who both have different issues, is a mutt that carries genes for either problem. It is far more beneficial to breed intelligently, and aim for healthy genetics overall. There are enough dogs in the world to go around, in fact there are too many, and it is really sad.


It depends on the animal for me. I don't necessarily see the moral consequence of it, however. Granted, I am of the opinion that human reproduction should be regulated to an extent, which is a bit of an unpopular opinion. Just because we are "made" to do something, doesn't mean we should. But I get where you are coming from. The difference between us, and our pets, is that we can make the informed decision to not have children, whereas our pets do not have the mental capability to make the distinction towards that kind of thing. It is an interesting topic, though.

Apologies if I seem all over the place, my mind is in a dozen places at once!


First, ferrets are an interesting case because of their peculiarities of being in heat. But more over, you speak a lot about extending life expectancy. Is extended life expectancy necessarily worth the cost of losing part of you?



Worth not dying in pain because you have several tumors in your abdomen that will leech all of your energy and life force, and end up weighing more than even you? I would certainly say so. Even in nature, living is the priority over your own offspring with most animals. Most animals, when faced with certain death for their offspring and themselves, will choose to save themselves.

We have this 3 1/2 year old rat, she is not spayed. She's going to die soon, she has massive tumors, that are almost bigger than her. She's had them for well over a month now, and normally we would have put down such a case, because they will normally stop eating and become resigned. She has not, she wants nothing more than to continue living, she almost acts as though nothing is wrong. Of course, if she displays signs of pain, we will have to end it. But even now, she is doing all she can to continue living, we thought she would be gone weeks ago. She's iron-willed as hell, and wants to live.

With our rabbit, she would have had an 83% chance to ALREADY have ovarian cancer, and she would be dead soon. Because she is spayed, she will get to enjoy living for another 8-9 years. Life over future offspring? Life, there is no doubt in my mind. Especially when it is the difference between 2 and 10 years.


So does that mean euthanasia is inherently unethical? And in a way, having offspring can cause one to live for millennia through their descendants, that's much more than 10 years.


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08 Nov 2016, 10:29 am

Animal shelters are full of unwanted pets.Even if it's a no kill shelter they spend most of their time in a small pen.Some will never be adopted becuse they are too old,unattractive or have a bad personality.I see no reason to add to this problem.All my girls are fixed.Even if I wanted to breed them how do I know what future life the offspring would have?If I couldn't find homes for the pups then I would be obligated to keep and care for them. I can only afford to care for so many.Wormer,shots,vet bills,food,flea treatments start to add up with multiple dogs.
Multiple pregnancies are hard on any animal,things can go wrong then there's the vet bill or worse,the pet dies.The risk of cancer in reproductive organs is higher in unfixed animals.To me it's the responsible thing to do.I want to give them the longest,happiest life that I can.


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