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Do LGBTQ people have more reasons to be proud than Aspies?
1) Yes 26%  26%  [ 9 ]
2) No 51%  51%  [ 18 ]
3) Not sure 23%  23%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 35

Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 7:16 pm

I noticed that there are "Gay Pride Parades", but there are no any "Asperger Pride Parades".

I do understand why Aspies are not proud of being Aspies and therefore don't have parades.

But what I do not understand, is why is the LGBTQ community proud of being LGBTQ ???

Do you think that LGBTQ people have more reasons to be proud of who they are than Aspies?



Last edited by Xardas on 10 Mar 2017, 7:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Jacoby
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10 Mar 2017, 7:30 pm

They have a real community and culture, we don't.



Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 7:57 pm

I edited the OP and added a poll. Feel free to vote.

Jacoby wrote:
They have a real community and culture, we don't.


Why is this the case?

I would say that two Aspies usually have more in common with each other than, let's say, a transgender woman, a queer man, and a lesbian. What is LGBTQ culture about? A culture focused entirely on sexuality doesn't sound like real culture.

If Aspies actually organized parades, how would these parades look like (compared to LGBTQ parades)?



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10 Mar 2017, 8:01 pm

It's a social disability, there aren't autistic bars like there are gay bars nor. Gays form their own in-group with each other while we are mostly defined by being our social deficit, there aint much solidarity let alone community or culture. Maybe the younger kids with better accommodations will do better?



Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 8:10 pm

Jacoby wrote:
It's a social disability, there aren't autistic bars like there are gay bars nor. Gays form their own in-group with each other while we are mostly defined by being our social deficit, there aint much solidarity let alone community or culture. Maybe the younger kids with better accommodations will do better?


IMHO homosexuality or transsexuality is no less and no more of a disability than Asperger. Please note that in the past they were considered disabilities, but LGBTQ activists have fought for the recognition of homosexuality and transsexuality as parts of, quote - "normal variation in human biological diversity" - and this is why these no longer count as disorders today.

I agree that severe autism is indeed a disability, but I'm not sure if Asperger should count as such.

If transsexuals are part of "normal variation in human biological diversity", then so must be Aspies.



naturalplastic
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10 Mar 2017, 8:17 pm

Xardas wrote:
I noticed that there are "Gay Pride Parades", but there are no any "Asperger Pride Parades".

I do understand why Aspies are not proud of being Aspies and therefore don't have parades.


Gee...

Thanks a lot! :D

We all appreciate you words of support. :D

Right back atcha! We understand you not being proud. :D

In fact....the only thing worse than being an aspie, is .... being seen with YOU in public! :lol:



Last edited by naturalplastic on 10 Mar 2017, 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 8:21 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Xardas wrote:
I noticed that there are "Gay Pride Parades", but there are no any "Asperger Pride Parades".

I do understand why Aspies are not proud of being Aspies and therefore don't have parades.


Gee...

Thanks a lot! :D

We all appreciate you words of support. :D

Right back atcha! We understand you not being proud. :D

In fact....the only thing worse than being an aspie, is .... being seen with YOU in public! :lol:


What I meant is that there is no point in pride of being an Aspie. Just like there is no point in pride of being Neurotypical. For example I am not proud that I am Neurotypical. Of course, we can all be proud of many other things.

I find gay pride weird as well. Just like I would find straight pride weird (if it actually was a thing).

I did not say that you should be ashamed of being Aspies. No, you should not be ashamed either.

There is a lot of "middle ground" between being proud of something and being ashamed of it!

naturalplastic wrote:
In fact....the only thing worse than being an aspie, is .... being seen with YOU in public! :lol:


Why? Maybe I would be willing to attend some Aspie Pride Parade, if it was actually a thing... :P



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10 Mar 2017, 8:32 pm

To answer your question:

Homosexuality was a civil rights issue. It branched off the Black civil rights movement.

Homosexuality was a thing that was known about for centuries (like race and gender). And like race and gender it was used as basis for descrimination. So in circa 1970 the gay rights movement erupted. They have gay pride marches because for generations gays were forced to be other than proud of themselves.

Aspergers is a medical condition. Though discovered in the 1930's it was not accepted as a medical condition any where on the planet out side of the German speaking parts of Europe until 1994. So no one even knew we aspies were here (even we aspies didnt know it) until basically the turn of the 21st Century. Unlike race, and sexual orientation, there are not laws to over turn that descriminate against the group (niether the oppressed, nor the oppressors knew the group existed).

But with time there may be "aspie pride marches". I dont find the concept completely crazy. And an aspie culture might evolve. Its still a new phenom. Two problems are; aspies are an even smaller a group than gays (gays are like five percent of the population, we are only 1.5 percent). And aspies, by definition,are non conformists who dont have as much of the herd instinct as everyone else (Whites, Blacks, Gays, Texans, whatever), and are less prone to fall into a "culture". Also the gays snapped up the cool cities (Frisco, Province Town, Key West). But we do have a toe hold on Silicon Valley. :)

The above is recent American history. Just noticed that you're in Poland. So you do have a reason to not know about it.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 10 Mar 2017, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 8:32 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
We understand you not being proud. :D


I am neurotypical actually. I joined this forum encouraged by one of its members to take part in discussions. I am proud of myself in general, but not because of me being NT. I don't identify with my "neurological profile".

I think Aspies should also try to avoid defining themselves first of all as Aspies.

I mean, your "neurological profile" (NT or autistic) does not exactly define who you are. Right?

What I mean is that you are much more than just your "neurological profile".

naturalplastic wrote:
Aspergers is a medical condition.


I just don't see how is it any more medical and more of a condition than homosexuality. And what about transsexuality - which is basically a mismatch between your brain and your biological sex. Is it also a medical condition?



Last edited by Xardas on 10 Mar 2017, 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jacoby
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10 Mar 2017, 8:35 pm

Xardas wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
It's a social disability, there aren't autistic bars like there are gay bars nor. Gays form their own in-group with each other while we are mostly defined by being our social deficit, there aint much solidarity let alone community or culture. Maybe the younger kids with better accommodations will do better?


IMHO homosexuality or transsexuality is no less and no more of a disability than Asperger. Please note that in the past they were considered disabilities, but LGBTQ activists have fought for the recognition of homosexuality and transsexuality as parts of, quote - "normal variation in human biological diversity" - and this is why these no longer count as disorders today.

I agree that severe autism is indeed a disability, but I'm not sure if Asperger should count as such.

If transsexuals are part of "normal variation in human biological diversity", then so must be Aspies.


I can only speak for myself but its been a pretty crippling disability to me, I don't think 80% of gays were ever unemployed like 80% of us on the spectrum are. I want more accommodation and recognition, not normalization and this idea that 'its just a difference' because it's not just a difference to me.



Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 8:38 pm

Jacoby wrote:
I can only speak for myself but its been a pretty crippling disability to me, I don't think 80% of gays were ever unemployed like 80% of us on the spectrum are. I want more accommodation and recognition, not normalization and this idea that 'its just a difference' because it's not just a difference to me.


Well I know people who have been diagnosed with Asperger and want normalization.

But they disagree with their diagnosis. They think that they are almost Neurotypical.



Last edited by Xardas on 10 Mar 2017, 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Mar 2017, 8:38 pm

Jacoby wrote:
It's a social disability, there aren't autistic bars like there are gay bars nor. Gays form their own in-group with each other while we are mostly defined by being our social deficit, there aint much solidarity let alone community or culture. Maybe the younger kids with better accommodations will do better?

^^^^
This

LBGTQ activism was going on decades before the autism rights movement was even thought of. Most autistics did not know they were autistic in the late 60's when all sorts of rights movements sprung out of the counterculture. While they might have been ashamed of themselves gays knew they were gay and the general public had a good idea of what made a person not straight. Today there is fundamental disagreement as to what Autism is, some believe that Autism does not exist, and among those believe autism exists there is widespread belief that it is massively over and misdiagnosed.


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10 Mar 2017, 8:42 pm

Xardas wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Xardas wrote:
I noticed that there are "Gay Pride Parades", but there are no any "Asperger Pride Parades".

I do understand why Aspies are not proud of being Aspies and therefore don't have parades.


Gee...

Thanks a lot! :D

We all appreciate you words of support. :D

Right back atcha! We understand you not being proud. :D

In fact....the only thing worse than being an aspie, is .... being seen with YOU in public! :lol:


What I meant is that there is no point in pride of being an Aspie. Just like there is no point in pride of being Neurotypical. For example I am not proud that I am Neurotypical. Of course, we can all be proud of many other things.

I find gay pride weird as well. Just like I would find straight pride weird (if it actually was a thing).

I did not say that you should be ashamed of being Aspies. No, you shouldn't be ashamed either.

There is a lot of "middle ground" between being proud of something and being ashamed of it!


LGBTQ Pride is more than simply being 'proud' of one's sexuality but in uniting and standing up again oppression, discrimination, marginilasation etc. It's about celebrating the community and culture that has been formed in the face of and because of such oppression. Sure, a lot of people might attend pride events for the party but that's not what lies at the core of the movement. A lot of LGBTQ people have faced numerous injustices as they are seen as deviant in the eyes of wider society. Yes they ARE deviant from the norm but this is not something that is wrong or dangerous or unnatural.

As far as 'autistic pride' goes, people on the spectrum have also faced numerous injustices and issues with wider society. There is a drive towards advocacy, awareness, and acceptance but I personally do not see the two groups as comparable beyond the fact we do not represent the 'norm'.


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Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 8:43 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Today there is fundamental disagreement as to what Autism is, some believe that Autism does not exist, and among those believe autism exists there is widespread belief that it is massively over and misdiagnosed.


Well, there is also disagreement as to what homosexuality is and what are its causes. There is also a lot of disagreement on whether homosexuality is "for life", or whether one's sexual orientation can change during lifetime?*

Check for example this article, "Why Does the Search for a Gay Gene Freak Everyone Out?":

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/02/18/gay_gene_research_why_does_it_make_people_freak_out.html

"(...) While researching Identically Different, my book on the effect of epigenetics on twins, I interviewed several sets of identical twins where one was gay and one straight (which is more common than both being gay).

All pairs were puzzled by their eventual differences, which often didn’t emerge until well after puberty. In these genetic clones, genes might explain their increased susceptibility but clearly were not enough to be in any way “deterministic.”

Importantly, while genes couldn’t explain the differences, the relatively new mechanism of epigenetics—which can differ between twins—was the probable reason. When I discussed these results last year on the radio, gay rights activists seemed to get even more upset at the idea of epigenetics rather than plain genetics. They were worried that as these changes were theoretically reversible, epigenetic drugs might become a future anti-gay treatment in oppressive societies. (...)"

* I know a male police officer who was married to a woman for well over a dozen years and he has few children with her. Later he divorced his wife and "came out" as a gay. Now he has a boyfriend. I guess that it could be for example some "epigenetic occurence" which activated something in his DNA and changed his sexual orientation...

But some disagree and say that he was gay to begin with (just married a woman "against his nature").



Last edited by Xardas on 10 Mar 2017, 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jacoby
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10 Mar 2017, 8:43 pm

Xardas wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I can only speak for myself but its been a pretty crippling disability to me, I don't think 80% of gays were ever unemployed like 80% of us on the spectrum are. I want more accommodation and recognition, not normalization and this idea that 'its just a difference' because it's not just a difference to me.


Well I know people who have been diagnosed with Asperger and want normalization.

But they disagree with their diagnosis. They think that they are almost Neurotypical.


If they do not have a social deficit then I do not really consider them on the spectrum and would disagree with their diagnosis too. To redefine it as a 'difference' basically makes everyone else that needs accommodation and isn't passing invisible.



Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 8:47 pm

Jacoby wrote:
If they do not have a social deficit then I do not really consider them on the spectrum and would disagree with their diagnosis too. To redefine it as a 'difference' basically makes everyone else that needs accommodation and isn't passing invisible.


They do have some sort of social deficits, but they are trying hard to change this. Many NTs are also "socially awkward", so I guess that there is no clear dividing line, but rather a continuum between real autists and socially awkward NTs.

It is a spectrum after all.