LGBTQ Pride vs. Asperger Pride

Post Reply New Topic

I think everyone is getting heated at this point and we should all take a deep breath at this point. I checked this out because I was curious as to what was going on. From my skimming, I gathered that it has been covered that due to discrimination, the LGBTQIA+ community is demanding visibility. They are ultimately defying those who'd rather they were invisible so that it's easier to marginalize them. That's why they have pride parades. I agree with this whole-heartedly.

It was also mentioned that Aspies or at least the general spectrum may be opposed to organizing parades because of their social awkwardness, sensory senstivities, etc. I see that many people are proud to identify. I apologize to our NT guest, but our solidarity lies in how we're different from NTs. We have only each other to relate to and yes, we can educate people about the spectrum. I have a friend who knew that I'm HFA. It felt good to know that he could acknowledge it and I hadn't told him. He just researched it himself and he'd seen it before. Things are better understood when people have had previous exposure to them. The issue being is that since the spectrum is so broad and there are disagreements about how to define autism, it becomes a matter of "showing" that you're autistic. The LGBTQIA+ community was forced into the Spotlight by the AIDS/ HIV "epidemic." There is Rain Man but most agree that this is inaccurate representation of the spectrum as a whole. I feel it was easier before HFA was just augmented into basic autism as ASD. You try to explain now and no one understands that your condition has not affected your executive functions. Being ASD is part of us, some of us accept it more than others. And that's okay.

Wrongplanet is a way for us to meet people who think the way we do. When we're such a minority, we of course tend to be frustrated with articulating our thoughts. That's natural. We don't have the words or we don't know where you don't understand. Contradictions or exceptions in etiquette are also bloody irritating. Sometimes it takes a while for initial rule to take especially if we don't understand the reasoning behind it and we get belitted as simply being "simple."

The point is there is no "we have more to be proud of than X group." We all perceive the world differently. A neurological condition is harder to simply show people or prove that it's simply a phase as opposed to how you marry or do not conform to the norm. We are ideologically a "little different", they are biologically. At the end of the day, the two communities still differ from the norm. You cannot kill an idea and nature always finds a way. You don't mean to antagonize anyone, guest, but nothing is more aggravating than having your identity invalidated or even debated by someone who seemingly does not understand the sensitivity of an issue. We appreciate you trying to understand us more but we are not interested in competing with others. Maybe we can look to X community for models for greater invisibility but works for them may not work for us. Overwatch has an autistic character now. This is a platform of solidarity, not bitching and hidden hatred. We have one another to better understand ourselves and not feel so alone in our communities.

Also, I learned to be normal through observing NTs. It took a long time but it's easier for me because girls have to understand sooner (social cues and whatnot). Do not speak for your friend whose mind you cannot simply peer into. Ask her. Your assumptions and marginalizing our accomplishments at coping only make it harder to communicate the condition.

How are you different from us? These differences are superficial. We are all humans.

I realize that usually NTs are the ones who tell you that you are "so different", who discriminate against you, and who make you feel like outcasts with their condescending attitudes. But not all NTs are like this! And when an Aspie tells me "you are so different from us", then - trust me - I can also feel bad about such stereotyping and "othering".

Especially if this particular Aspie is someone I care about (e.g. someone I like, etc.).



I'm open-minded. I think that I'm capable of understanding Aspies despite being NT.



Is this friend NT, do you think that your friend can't relate to you due to being NT?

Friends generally understand each other - solidarity is the essence of friendship.



That makes sense. And yes, I'm trying to understand your thoughts better.

Yes, my friend is NT. He picked it up when I tried to explain that I can't tell when people are joking.

As for differences, they are the more imperceivable differences such as how things make us feel or the gaps in NT reasoning. It's more of an experience but that doesn't mean you can't empathize. We take in stride with others but here we get to know if it's just us or a general problem. Yes, we are all human. We love being human! Being treated as human. Here, people are willing to explain things to you like you're five but still holding intelligent conversation. In real life, people expect us to already know.That feeling where you feel like a minority, you were like us in that moment. Except you can turn off the screen.

As for your willingness to learn or rather understand, I appreciate that personally. It makes teaching a bit easier. I'm not trying to offend you. You know just as well as we all do that our identity opinions on this site have a very large range. Some people border on supremacy, and that makes it harder to reach out at times. I understand that you are not an arrogant prick trying to assert you know what is best for us, and that there are nice NTs just as they're are mean ones. I do not think that my friend cannot understand me, only that he may have to make a bit of an effort of times. I just worry about him not being able to tell whether it's the condition or I need a push in the right direction. It's already hard to understand the physical limits of someone you know intimately and emotional and mental aspects are neigh impossible. I feel a little upset with myself, because as soon as he said he knew, I tried to get him to explain to others so there was no miscommunication on my part. I have to teach others myself but the willingness to learn makes a world of difference.

I apologize in advance for what I'm going to say, because it is not going to be pleasant for most users - but I have heard an opinion that Wrong Planet is more like a "safe space" or like a "mutual admiration society", than like a real support group. I've been told that on WP people are often not solution-oriented enough, and just validate each other instead of offering true advice and real solutions.

The person who told me about that also compared Wrong Planet with Reddit r/aspergers and said that on Reddit people are more likely to question your diagnosis, while on WP people cling to their self-diagnosis too much, and are eager to claim that everyone else must be an autist too. As you can see I also got labelled as an autist, against my will, immediately after starting to post on this forum.

PS:

I just wrote what another person told me, but I'm not saying that I fully agree with that opinion. Perhaps you can give it some thought and think about ways to improve Wrong Planet and make it an even better place.

Last edited by Xardas on 11 Mar 2017, 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Good that you mentioned the gaps in NT reasoning. It's not just Aspies, NT people are also not perfect. But with mutual efforts and learning how to understand each other's ways of reasoning, we can be on the same wavelength.



Yes I agree that sometimes we NTs have to make a bit of an effort to understand you. As long as there is mutual respect and willingness to get along with each other, we can overcome any differences that are between us.

The outward differences of Asperger's is a result of different internal mental processes.

For example, I jumped when someone's pencil dropped while my NT friends doesn't react to it in any way. My NT friend's brain was able to process it as "Oh, a pencil dropped." and remain calm. Meanwhile my brain was like, "WHAT HAPPENED? WHAT WAS THAT? HELP!" and so I reacted differently.

Yes, we are all human, but in many cases, Asperger's causes differences that really need a specific kind of help to deal with, other wise it will hold back a person from suceeding. Even when other people are not discriminating.

OK, I can only agree with that.



This is a convincing example.

I'm sorry that happened to you. Some people, especially Aspies, leap to conclusions without taking the time to know the entire situation.

I'll admit to an extent that we deviate from the average support group but support also comes from feeling that your feelings and experiences are validated and that you're okay. First step to seeking help is acceptance, and all that. The more angsty and validation texts may come from people who either don't have the resources to get a proper diagnosis or are petrified of the stigma. Some people try to take care of themselves behind closed doors. There's a stigma, no question.

Plainly, the hardest thing to do is to convince people that a dialogue is necessary. People come here to know what is normal as opposed to knowing how to cope (although you will find the few odd posts, especially in parenting, that attempt this). The fact the site exists is a start but I think the best way to approach it is to read up a bit on your own before asking serious questions to prove that your really want to learn so that your questions are better guided. We have plenty of references for NTs given that it's the general populace that produce media. Although, I'm sure there are some who'd be happy to see things or get better clarification from your perspective.

The site's founder had a documentary where an NT explained that she felt that everyone had a little Aspie in them. The actual Aspies were just more obvious. Yes, people are quick to diagnose but it is a safe space for some and when you invalidate their identity, they are sure to take offense. Imagine if someone told you you weren't Polish enough to be considered Polish? If you didn't act like what you preached. When you were annoyed about his imposed diagnosis on you, he demonstrated how he hates the idea that he would be stripped of the familiar. He shouldn't do that, and I do not know him in any familiar way as I am relatively new. Yet I understand he didn't have the words to explain what he was getting at. I could be completely wrong or bang on. He'll have to tell us. The only issue is it's harder to say so he may still not be able to get his point across.

I apologize for the delay. I'm ill.

Oh there is no need to apologize , I don't expect you to be browsing the forum 24/7. You could respond to my post for example tomorrow, or even later. I would not mind. Of course in face-to-face discussions people are expected to reply immediately (without "awkward silence"), but very different standards apply to online discussions.



Get well soon!



I agree. And I can add, that every Aspie has a little NT in them too. But it is not so obvious either.



OK, me and Naturalplastic have already explained this in private messages. And I don't take offense.

I also apologize if I wrote anything that could imply that I'm trying to forcibly invalidate your identity.

It's fine! I'm still settling in. I read everything as you being curious. I was just trying to explain that your tone seemed hostile (because you had questioned the lack of pride parades) and that could have led to the miscommunication-fueled conflict. I'm happy you guys made up.

I'm afraid I'm replying to this rather late in the story, but here are my two cents. As someone who is on the spectrum and gay I have a bit of a cross over view on this issue.

Firstly gay (LGBTQI) pride is really a response to a society has regularly shamed people for their deviant sexual desires and practices and their deviant relationship to gender roles. Saying your proud and gay, or proud and LGBTQI, is kind of like saying you refuse to be ashamed anymore. Its also about saying you refuse to hide in the shadows anymore. This still is an ongoing struggle and in some countries it has barely even started.

To be frank I'd say that people on the spectrum have as much right as gay people to say that they refuse to be ashamed of, deny, or pathologise their way of experiencing the world and other people. I think this is a driving force behind the neurodiversity movement. After all its not so long ago that people on the spectrum were regularly institutionalised for life. Its also not long ago that being gay was illegal.

Many people on the spectrum have also likely experienced the stigma associated with mental health problems. After all quite a few of us experience multiple different psychiatric problems. Its kind of a double whammy really.

As far as LGBTQI culture goes, well that's pretty fragmented too. Its not really a global thing. Although there are gay male novels, gay male films and gay male artists, the majority of the gay scene (on or of line) is primarily driven by sex. Its not like there is some grand unifying culture that people hook into when they come out. And of course there are significant differences again if you consider the cultural self expression of Lesbians, trans people. But I have no expertise on those cultures, I can only really speak as an outsider. LGBTQI culture is kind of like a patch work quilt, not an organic whole.

Although there is not as much autistic culture, there are novels and biographies of autistics and art works by autistic artists and increasingly also theory about autism by autistic people. Admittedly there is a much smaller pool of cultural products and practices at the moment, but who knows where that will be in the future.

A few points.

Autistics are human but autism is defined as a PERVASIVE developmental disorder. Pervasive means anything but superficial differences.

Wrong Planet is not a true safe space. A forum with safe space elements would be more accurate. The site owner and founder Alex Plank accepts and wants NT's here. NT's are not guests, they are members or users just like autistic members. A true safe space allows no "outsiders" . That said there is a strong Autistics supporting each other purpose here.

I can not speak for other Autism sites but this site has a large group of older self diagnosed autistics and people that suspect they are autistic. They come from an era when their type of autism was not recognized. Today the vast majority of Autism research and supports go to child and teen autism so often clinicians that understand adult autism are unavailable and unaffordable.

Related to the last paragraph Autism has only been relativly recently been recognized and the idea of an autistic rights movement and autistics supporting each other is very new. Which means we are all still trying to figure this out. This leads to confusion and fundemental disagreement as to who is Autistic. That makes educating oneself about autism a diificult endeavor full of contradictory messages.

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 11 Mar 2017, 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This! Right on the money.

Hello Xardas,

I'm just wondering what motivated you to ask the above question in the first place? It really does seem like you are angry about something. Specially considering the discussion has ended up with a discussion of whether wrongplanet is a "safe space" or not.

Firstly regarding the aspergers subreddit: you seem to suggest that people there question other people's diagnoses. Frankly this doesn't seem like a good thing, since no one online really has a right to do that and most likely most likely most of us would not be qualified to do it offline either. On the other hand people do often describe themselves here and ask people's opinion about whether it would be worthwhile pursuing a diagnosis. My impression is that generally people respond very helpfully.

Secondly regarding the suggestion that wrongplanet is a "safe space": surely you can decide not to post here if you feel it is over moderated. If you are more comfortable with the subreddit why not post there? I mean if you really care about not being in a "safe space" 4chan is still around.

This leads me to wonder again what motivates your original question?

I know this is off topic but I can't resist the urge to comment.

I have Native American in me but only the blood but I am not Native American so I have been told I am not one. That doesn't offend me. I have some English in me, German, Scottish, Hungarian, etc. and I don't get offended if I were told I wasn't English or Scottish or German because I didn't have enough. It's the same as telling someone they don't have autism because they don't have enough of the symptoms or are not impaired enough by it. But there are gray areas like they have symptoms but not enough for a true diagnoses but their impairments are significant enough so they still get the diagnoses for the help they need.