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Do LGBTQ people have more reasons to be proud than Aspies?
1) Yes 28%  28%  [ 10 ]
2) No 50%  50%  [ 18 ]
3) Not sure 22%  22%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 36

NikNak
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10 Mar 2017, 8:53 pm

Jacoby wrote:
To redefine it as a 'difference' basically makes everyone else that needs accommodation and isn't passing invisible.


Going off topic but want to voice my agreement here because I've found this to be the less popular opinion, at least in a group I'm involved with.


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10 Mar 2017, 8:57 pm

Gosh!

The irony!

Saying something like "I can see why folks in your group are not proud" is exactly the sort of thing that someone socially impaired would say. Someone who lacks the empathy to see how their words might be taken by others.

In other words your turn of phrase is characteristic of someone on the autism spectrum.

Thats why I threw your words back at you (to show you how you sound). That on the assumption that you are in fact a younger person who is on the autism spectrum and that you need that kinda tough love from an elder to learn how to survive in the NT world.

And now you tell me that you ARE NT! Lol!

Okay..youre from Poland, and from Eastern Europe. Eastern Europe is not like western europe and North America- not as up to the minute in thinking trends. And there probably are linguistic nuances as issues. And you dont know the history of the US Civil Rights movements. And on top of that youre a generation or two younger than me. There could be other issues in the two of us communicating. But...

But still...are you SURE you really ARE NT???????



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10 Mar 2017, 9:00 pm

Xardas wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
If they do not have a social deficit then I do not really consider them on the spectrum and would disagree with their diagnosis too. To redefine it as a 'difference' basically makes everyone else that needs accommodation and isn't passing invisible.


They do have some sort of social deficits, but they are trying hard to change this. Many NTs are also "socially awkward", so I guess that there is no clear dividing line, but rather a continuum between real autists and socially awkward NTs.

It is a spectrum after all.


There is a difference between some social awkwardness and a disability, that's the line and I don't think it's really that thin of a line either. I try to 'fix' and better myself too everyday but it's a struggle just to get by and with no accommodations I would probably be a shut-in NEET that never left my parents house. There other aspects like sensory issues and the comorbids I should make mention of too, it's not just people that struggle with small talk.



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10 Mar 2017, 9:04 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Gosh!

The irony!

Saying something like "I can see why folks in your group are not proud" is exactly the sort of thing that someone socially impaired would say. Someone who lacks the empathy to see how their words might be taken by others.


OK let me clarify this. You should be proud of yourselves. Just not because you are Aspies.

Be proud of who you are regardless of whether you are high on the autism spectrum or not.

I do have a lot of empathy. But I also tend to be straightforward and right to the point (blunt).



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10 Mar 2017, 9:10 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Thats why I threw your words back at you (to show you how you sound). That on the assumption that you are in fact a younger person who is on the autism spectrum and that you need that kinda tough love from an elder to learn how to survive in the NT world.

And now you tell me that you ARE NT! Lol!

Okay..youre from Poland, and from Eastern Europe. Eastern Europe is not like western europe and North America- not as up to the minute in thinking trends. And there probably are linguistic nuances as issues. And you dont know the history of the US Civil Rights movements. And on top of that youre a generation or two younger than me. There could be other issues in the two of us communicating. But...

But still...are you SURE you really ARE NT???????


I'm in my 20s and yeah I'm sure that I am NT and I'm not even a socially awkward one.

But I don't really know much about the autism spectrum so feel free to enlighten me.

naturalplastic wrote:
In other words your turn of phrase is characteristic of someone on the autism spectrum.


Or just someone who doesn't care about being extremely polite or politically correct.



Last edited by Xardas on 10 Mar 2017, 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Mar 2017, 9:11 pm

Xardas wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
We understand you not being proud. :D


I am neurotypical actually. I joined this forum encouraged by one of its members to take part in discussions. I am proud of myself in general, but not because of me being NT. I don't identify with my "neurological profile".

I think Aspies should also try to avoid defining themselves first of all as Aspies.

I mean, your "neurological profile" (NT or autistic) does not exactly define who you are. Right?

What I mean is that you are much more than just your "neurological profile".


You have not been aspie-autistic like me for almost six decades so while you have a right to tell me what you think makes me, me, it is the wrong thing to do. Autism is not all of who I am but my Autism and personality is so fused together it is indistinguishable. It is different for others on the spectrum.

Non autistic people telling us who we are is exactly why the autistic rights movement is needed. Until recently non autistics did not recognize we existed then when they found out defined us, made treatments for us based on what they thought was best for us without any input from us. Until recently practically all autism advocacy was done without consulting us.


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10 Mar 2017, 9:19 pm

Aren't the people of the LGBTQQIP2SAA+ (whatever they call it now) community and people with Asperger's born this way? It's literally a common slogan of the LGBTQQIP2SAA+ movement. I don't think you should be proud of how you were born. It's similar to me saying, "I'm black, I'm proud!" I'm actually white, but I used black, because it's not the "norm" where I am. You should be proud of being public about it (though that's less of an accomplishment in many areas nowadays). I'll probably get hate, because my opinion isn't the norm. But why can't I have irregular opinion pride?


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Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 9:20 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Non autistic people telling us who we are is exactly why the autistic rights movement is needed.


Well I admit that I'm quite ignorant about the subject. I do not know so much about autism.

But I wasn't really telling you who you are. I was just suggesting who you might be, in my opinion.

I have been reading some threads on Wrong Planet and what I found annoying is that you guys always refer to NTs as "the others, who do not think like us". I actually felt offended by that. We are humans like you and I'm sure that there are many NTs who can understand your ways of thinking. It's not like all NTs are "intellectually mediocre".



Last edited by Xardas on 10 Mar 2017, 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Mar 2017, 9:20 pm

Xardas wrote:
I know a male police officer who was married to a woman for well over a dozen years and he has few children with her. Later he divorced his wife and "came out" as a gay. Now he has a boyfriend. I guess that it could be for example some "epigenetic occurence" which activated something in his DNA and changed his sexual orientation...

But some disagree and say that he was gay to begin with (just married a woman "against his nature").

Yeah, I definitely disagree with your thinking, regarding this. While I couldn't possibly know every gay person, I've known quite a few (I have several in my family, alone), and I feel that when someone has been married for several years and then come-out, it's because they were trying to "pass" (just like we Aspies do - IOW, be "normal").

In my experience, some examples of why people try to pass, have been: To keep the peace in their families (the family they were born into), or to keep their job (people can STILL, actually, lose their job, for being gay), or because they were told they are evil (if they come-from a religious family, for instance), and nobody wants to think of themselves that way, or have anyone else think they are; or, to just stay alive (as gays are still being killed, for being gay----as are Trans people and "retards" [Aspies, often]).





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Last edited by Campin_Cat on 10 Mar 2017, 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 9:23 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Xardas wrote:
I know a male police officer who was married to a woman for well over a dozen years and he has few children with her. Later he divorced his wife and "came out" as a gay. Now he has a boyfriend. I guess that it could be for example some "epigenetic occurence" which activated something in his DNA and changed his sexual orientation...

But some disagree and say that he was gay to begin with (just married a woman "against his nature").

Yeah, I definitely disagree with your thinking, regarding this. While I couldn't possibly know every gay person, I've known quite a few (I have several in my family, alone), and I feel that when someone has been married for several years and then come-out, it's because they were trying to "pass" (just like we Aspies do - IOW, be "normal"). Some examples, in my experience, have been: To keep the peace in their families (the family they were born into), or to keep their job (people can STILL, actually, lose their job, for being gay), or because they were told they are evil (if they come-from a religious family, for instance), and nobody wants to think of themselves that way, or have anyone else think they are; or, to just stay alive (as gays are still being killed, for being gay----as are Trans people and "retards" [Aspies, often]).


But there are also opposite examples - people who had been gay at first, and later became straight.

Such examples do exist. I even know one such man, who had a "gay phase" for several years. And later he "came out" as straight. How do you explain this? This just shows that sexuality is quite "flexible" and "changeable".

There are also people who "grow out of autism". People who were Aspie kids, but become NT adults.

Quote:
"retards" [Aspies, often]


Retards? As far as I know Aspies are often more intelligent than your average NT person.



Last edited by Xardas on 10 Mar 2017, 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Mar 2017, 9:24 pm

Xardas wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Xardas wrote:
I know a male police officer who was married to a woman for well over a dozen years and he has few children with her. Later he divorced his wife and "came out" as a gay. Now he has a boyfriend. I guess that it could be for example some "epigenetic occurence" which activated something in his DNA and changed his sexual orientation...

But some disagree and say that he was gay to begin with (just married a woman "against his nature").

Yeah, I definitely disagree with your thinking, regarding this. While I couldn't possibly know every gay person, I've known quite a few (I have several in my family, alone), and I feel that when someone has been married for several years and then come-out, it's because they were trying to "pass" (just like we Aspies do - IOW, be "normal"). Some examples, in my experience, have been: To keep the peace in their families (the family they were born into), or to keep their job (people can STILL, actually, lose their job, for being gay), or because they were told they are evil (if they come-from a religious family, for instance), and nobody wants to think of themselves that way, or have anyone else think they are; or, to just stay alive (as gays are still being killed, for being gay----as are Trans people and "retards" [Aspies, often]).


But there are also opposite examples - people who had been gay at first, and later became straight.

Such examples do exist. I even know one such man, who had a "gay phase" for several years. And later he "came out" as straight. How do you explain this? This just shows that sexuality is quite "flexible" and "changeable".


Some man named Kinsey (might've been Kinsley) suggested that sexuality may or may not be fluid. He said that female sexuality is more fluent than male sexuality (though male sexuality is still fluid).


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10 Mar 2017, 9:25 pm

Xardas wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Today there is fundamental disagreement as to what Autism is, some believe that Autism does not exist, and among those believe autism exists there is widespread belief that it is massively over and misdiagnosed.


Well, there is also disagreement as to what homosexuality is and what are its causes. There is also a lot of disagreement on whether homosexuality is "for life", or whether one's sexual orientation can change during lifetime?*

Check for example this article, "Why Does the Search for a Gay Gene Freak Everyone Out?":

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/02/18/gay_gene_research_why_does_it_make_people_freak_out.html

"(...) While researching Identically Different, my book on the effect of epigenetics on twins, I interviewed several sets of identical twins where one was gay and one straight (which is more common than both being gay).

All pairs were puzzled by their eventual differences, which often didn’t emerge until well after puberty. In these genetic clones, genes might explain their increased susceptibility but clearly were not enough to be in any way “deterministic.”

Importantly, while genes couldn’t explain the differences, the relatively new mechanism of epigenetics—which can differ between twins—was the probable reason. When I discussed these results last year on the radio, gay rights activists seemed to get even more upset at the idea of epigenetics rather than plain genetics. They were worried that as these changes were theoretically reversible, epigenetic drugs might become a future anti-gay treatment in oppressive societies. (...)"

* I know a male police officer who was married to a woman for well over a dozen years and he has few children with her. Later he divorced his wife and "came out" as a gay. Now he has a boyfriend. I guess that it could be for example some "epigenetic occurence" which activated something in his DNA and changed his sexual orientation...

But some disagree and say that he was gay to begin with (just married a woman "against his nature").


What you are discussing is different ideas of what causes a person to be gay it and if can be reversed not what fundamentally it is which is a sexual attraction at some point in one's life to a person of the same sex. Transgender is closer to autism because there is disagreement to if it is real but even then there is a common definition that is non-existent for autism.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 10 Mar 2017, 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Xardas
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10 Mar 2017, 9:26 pm

The Unleasher wrote:
Some man named Kinsey (might've been Kinsley) suggested that sexuality may or may not be fluid. He said that female sexuality is more fluent than male sexuality (though male sexuality is still fluid).


I agree.



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10 Mar 2017, 9:44 pm

I have noticed a lot of similarities between the groups and would really like an Aspie culture, but I don't think it will ever become nearly as much of a thing as LGBT culture has become. There are fewer of us, and we're generally more secluded and keep to ourselves, so we usually aren't as visible to the public.

Xardas wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Xardas wrote:
I know a male police officer who was married to a woman for well over a dozen years and he has few children with her. Later he divorced his wife and "came out" as a gay. Now he has a boyfriend. I guess that it could be for example some "epigenetic occurence" which activated something in his DNA and changed his sexual orientation...

But some disagree and say that he was gay to begin with (just married a woman "against his nature").

Yeah, I definitely disagree with your thinking, regarding this. While I couldn't possibly know every gay person, I've known quite a few (I have several in my family, alone), and I feel that when someone has been married for several years and then come-out, it's because they were trying to "pass" (just like we Aspies do - IOW, be "normal"). Some examples, in my experience, have been: To keep the peace in their families (the family they were born into), or to keep their job (people can STILL, actually, lose their job, for being gay), or because they were told they are evil (if they come-from a religious family, for instance), and nobody wants to think of themselves that way, or have anyone else think they are; or, to just stay alive (as gays are still being killed, for being gay----as are Trans people and "retards" [Aspies, often]).


But there are also opposite examples - people who had been gay at first, and later became straight.

Such examples do exist. I even know one such man, who had a "gay phase" for several years. And later he "came out" as straight. How do you explain this? This just shows that sexuality is quite "flexible" and "changeable".

There are also people who "grow out of autism". People who were Aspie kids, but become NT adults.

Quote:
"retards" [Aspies, often]


Retards? As far as I know Aspies are often more intelligent than your average NT person.


Nobody "grows out of autism." It's with you for life. Some people can hide the symptoms as they get older, but the autism never goes away.

The IQs range from average to above-average. Mine is only average.



Last edited by Grammar Geek on 10 Mar 2017, 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Mar 2017, 9:45 pm

Asperger's can impair the ability to do functional tasks, such as going to a store and remembering to buy everything you need. Not everybody with Asperger's has that problem, but it's just an example. Obviously, if you can't remember to buy everything you need, you will have problems living independently. It's not just about being awkward.

I don't see how sexuality could interfere with things like memory, executive function, and being able to live independently.


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10 Mar 2017, 9:50 pm

Xardas wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Non autistic people telling us who we are is exactly why the autistic rights movement is needed.


Well I admit that I'm quite ignorant about the subject. I do not know so much about autism.

But I wasn't really telling you who you are. I was just suggesting who you might be, in my opinion.

I have been reading some threads on Wrong Planet and what I found annoying is that you guys always refer to NTs as "the others, who do not think like us". I actually felt offended by that. We are humans like you and I'm sure that there are many NTs who can understand your ways of thinking. It's not like all NTs are "intellectually mediocre".


I and many others on WP agree that there is too much stereotyping and "othering" of NT's on Wrong Planet.

I am not criticizing you for being ignorant about autism and our experiences. But giving your ignorant opinion is not the right thing to do most especially about what the makeup of other people are. People are touchy about that sort of thing. I discussed the disagreement about LBGTQ issues but I did not give my ignorant opinion about them. I unlike others in this thread did not and will not suggest you are an aspie based on reading a few posts of yours.


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