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Do LGBTQ people have more reasons to be proud than Aspies?
1) Yes 28%  28%  [ 10 ]
2) No 50%  50%  [ 18 ]
3) Not sure 22%  22%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 36

Campin_Cat
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10 Mar 2017, 9:55 pm

Xardas wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Xardas wrote:
I know a male police officer who was married to a woman for well over a dozen years and he has few children with her. Later he divorced his wife and "came out" as a gay. Now he has a boyfriend. I guess that it could be for example some "epigenetic occurence" which activated something in his DNA and changed his sexual orientation...

But some disagree and say that he was gay to begin with (just married a woman "against his nature").

Yeah, I definitely disagree with your thinking, regarding this. While I couldn't possibly know every gay person, I've known quite a few (I have several in my family, alone), and I feel that when someone has been married for several years and then come-out, it's because they were trying to "pass" (just like we Aspies do - IOW, be "normal").

In my experience, some examples of why people try to pass, have been: To keep the peace in their families (the family they were born into), or to keep their job (people can STILL, actually, lose their job, for being gay), or because they were told they are evil (if they come-from a religious family, for instance), and nobody wants to think of themselves that way, or have anyone else think they are; or, to just stay alive (as gays are still being killed, for being gay----as are Trans people and "retards" [Aspies, often]).
(I changed what you quoted, to what I edited to, so people wouldn't think you had changed my post.)

But there are also opposite examples - people who had been gay at first, and later became straight.

Such examples do exist. I even know one such man, who had a "gay phase" for several years. And later he "came out" as straight. How do you explain this? This just shows that sexuality is quite "flexible" and "changeable".

There are also people who "grow out of autism". People who were Aspie kids, but become NT adults.

Quote:
"retards" [Aspies, often]


Retards? As far as I know Aspies are often more intelligent than your average NT person.

Yes, I have also known a couple of gay people, who later determined they were actually straight (we also have a non-Trans person on this site, who used to be Trans). IMO, that means they weren't gay, to-begin-with----that, maybe, because they were only able to communicate with / relate to their own gender, they misconstrued it to mean that they were gay, or something. I don't think there's a definitive answer----I have heard more-than-one person say that they felt sexuality was a spectrum, as well, and I can see how that could be.

As for people "growing out of Autism", I don't think that's possible----to me that would seem like the same as someone just suddenly morphing into the opposite gender. I think what happens, is that people develop "tricks" / work-arounds / whatever, that make them APPEAR that they've grown-out of Autism (they could probably even be tested and found NOT to be Autistic), but that doesn't mean, IMO, that they're "over it", have been cured, or whatever.

Yes, Aspies are OFTEN considered retards, when we display social awkwardness, or are slow on the uptake of jokes or sarcasm, or whatever (afterall, "retarded" DOES mean "slow"----and, I'm certainly aware of my being slow). As for us being smarter than NTs, I don't think that's true, either----again, I think we APPEAR to be smarter because one of our greatest passions seems to be learning (but, as I have said often, IMO, "learned" is NOT the same as being "smart").





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10 Mar 2017, 10:35 pm

The Unleasher wrote:
... I don't think you should be proud of how you were born. ... You should be proud of being public about it (though that's less of an accomplishment in many areas nowadays). I'll probably get hate, because my opinion isn't the norm. But why can't I have irregular opinion pride?

No hate, from ME----I agree with what you said; and, I ALSO agree with having "irregular opinion pride", cuz I have that, as well!! GOOD job!!






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iliketrees
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11 Mar 2017, 1:32 am

Xardas wrote:
I agree that severe autism is indeed a disability, but I'm not sure if Asperger should count as such.

Kindly f**k off. Without the accommodations I get from my disability recognised as such, I could not function. This is one of the few things that genuinely piss me off. I'm sick of the difficulties I have being undermined in this way.

Jacoby wrote:
I want more accommodation and recognition, not normalization and this idea that 'its just a difference' because it's not just a difference to me.

...

If they do not have a social deficit then I do not really consider them on the spectrum and would disagree with their diagnosis too. To redefine it as a 'difference' basically makes everyone else that needs accommodation and isn't passing invisible.

...


There is a difference between some social awkwardness and a disability, that's the line and I don't think it's really that thin of a line either. I try to 'fix' and better myself too everyday but it's a struggle just to get by and with no accommodations I would probably be a shut-in NEET that never left my parents house. There other aspects like sensory issues and the comorbids I should make mention of too, it's not just people that struggle with small talk.

I'm with you there.

248RPA wrote:
Asperger's can impair the ability to do functional tasks, such as going to a store and remembering to buy everything you need. Not everybody with Asperger's has that problem, but it's just an example. Obviously, if you can't remember to buy everything you need, you will have problems living independently. It's not just about being awkward.

I don't see how sexuality could interfere with things like memory, executive function, and being able to live independently.

I agree. It seems OP has forgotten you need to be clinically significantly impaired in important areas of functioning. The problems LGBT people may have would be from discrimination rather than a disability.



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11 Mar 2017, 4:02 am

The Intersectionality of Autism and Homosexuality Louis Molnar wants the world to know that, just like being gay, being autistic is nothing to be ashamed of.

Quote:
In 1973, the year I was born, the American Psychiatric Association voted to remove homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses. A father of modern psychotherapy, Sigmund Freud, believed that homosexuality and paranoia were inseparable. What he considered “symptoms” of homosexuality were very often a reaction to living an outcast life in shadows: seclusion, low self-worth, and self-destructive behavior. These things take their toll on the mind. For many decades the blame was on just about anything from poor parenting to vaccines. Homosexuals were subjected to behavioral conversion therapy, shock therapy, injections, beatings, removal from imaginary catalysts, and social shaming to drive the gay out of them.

These very things currently happen in the autism world.

As a gay man who grew up in these transitional decades, I am keenly aware of the parallels: the fear, the ignorance, the desire to be out in private but closeted in public. I see those who are not self-aware, but I believe that, even with identification, would live their entire lives in the closet.

Daniel Schumer of the University of Michigan recently found that nearly 25 percent of young people with gender dysphoria have an elevated rate of Asperger's syndrome and display autistic traits overall. So here is a direct connection with autism and transgender tendencies.


The author goes on to say autism is normal, less disease language should used be etc. As seen in posts in this very thread many autistics vigourously disagree. They are tired of people dismissing thier autistic experiece which at it's core is about deficits and disabilities. Asking not have ones experienced dismissed is a fair request. It is also a fair request to ask those of us who feel our difficulties are all about or heavily from disadvantages and stigmas not to be dismissed as not autistic. I was not diagnosed until age 55. When the author writes about living in the shadows and bieng unreconized he is writing about my experience.

In my opinion because your autism bieng very disabling does not preculde what he is saying about the effects of hostility and stigmatization. They compound the effect of Autism disabilties on self worth and self destructive behavoirs.

I am straight but old enough to remember when the gay rights movement was first starting out and most viewed any non straight sexuality as a sick perversion. When I was bullied I was not mocked as autustic because it was unrecognized. I was called "homo" and "queer" which was considered the worst insult one guy could say about another guy back then. While I can not really know what it was like to not be straight back then my experiences give me a general sense of why an LBGQT person would view themsevles as defective back then. I and others here have discussed the real differences between the two movements but I wholeheartly agree with the author about the strong parallels.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 11 Mar 2017, 4:36 am, edited 3 times in total.

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11 Mar 2017, 4:09 am

You clearly don't even know what Asperger's is if you think it's just a quirk and a difference and being socially awkward. It's given me anxiety and learning disabilities and made it hard for me to fit in and be accepted by my peers because of my own social issues and I was perceived as weird and strange and mean and rude and show off. I even destroyed a relationship between my mom and a neighbor making my family outcasts on the block because I didn't know to keep my mouth shut when I asked her why she was talking to her because she said she didn't like her and the neighbor was standing right there. I also don't have any friends but gave up on them in my teens.

No I don't have any special gifts you mostly hear about with AS. In fact I was academically delayed so I never fit the textbook definition of AS where they are very smart and ahead academically and intellectually and being gifted. Though I know there are NTs who would fit that profile too except they wouldn't have any autistic traits.


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11 Mar 2017, 5:18 am

I voted 'yes'. This is possibly because I've been told so often by my family that I can't expect anyone to accept me the way I am (potentially ND). I don't see ASD of something to be ashamed of, I just have had the notion drummed into me that I cannot be proud of the way I am.

Although I don't see myself as LGBTIQ+ (or having any sexuality, really), I have long identified with the LGBTIQ+ community because they also face prejudice for being different.


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Xardas
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11 Mar 2017, 7:18 am

iliketrees wrote:
Kindly f**k off. Without the accommodations I get from my disability recognised as such, I could not function.


Can you elaborate on this, what kinds of accomodations do you get that make your life easier?



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11 Mar 2017, 9:07 am

why not?


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11 Mar 2017, 9:24 am

I think we deserve pride. Asperger's isn't anything to be ashamed of.


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11 Mar 2017, 9:32 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
Yes, I have also known a couple of gay people, who later determined they were actually straight (we also have a non-Trans person on this site, who used to be Trans). IMO, that means they weren't gay, to-begin-with----that, maybe, because they were only able to communicate with / relate to their own gender, they misconstrued it to mean that they were gay, or something. I don't think there's a definitive answer----I have heard more-than-one person say that they felt sexuality was a spectrum, as well, and I can see how that could be.


IMO you are making up various circumstances to explain this (like the idea that they were only able to communicate with their own gender - you have no evidence that it was the case). For some reason you don't want to believe that sexuality can be fluid. I prefer to go with Occam's razor and to assume that they used to be gay but their sexuality has changed.

Campin_Cat wrote:
As for people "growing out of Autism", I don't think that's possible----to me that would seem like the same as someone just suddenly morphing into the opposite gender. I think what happens, is that people develop "tricks" / work-arounds / whatever, that make them APPEAR that they've grown-out of Autism (they could probably even be tested and found NOT to be Autistic), but that doesn't mean, IMO, that they're "over it", have been cured, or whatever.


Autism is a spectrum and IMO moving along the spectrum to become more NT-like is possible.

Question is where do you want to draw the line between being "already NT" and "still autistic".

Quote:
Yes, Aspies are OFTEN considered retards, when we display social awkwardness, or are slow on the uptake of jokes or sarcasm, or whatever (afterall, "retarded" DOES mean "slow"----and, I'm certainly aware of my being slow). As for us being smarter than NTs, I don't think that's true, either----again, I think we APPEAR to be smarter because one of our greatest passions seems to be learning (but, as I have said often, IMO, "learned" is NOT the same as being "smart").[/b]


OK but this refers to being "socially retarded" rather than being "intellectually retarded".

If someone is not slow on the uptake of jokes or sarcasm, can such a person still be autistic?

Because I know a person who understands jokes and sarcasm pretty well, but she used to be labelled as an Aspie. Maybe she just "grew out of it"? Understanding jokes and sarcasm is not something that can be learned.



Xardas
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11 Mar 2017, 9:51 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I and many others on WP agree that there is too much stereotyping and "othering" of NT's on Wrong Planet.


Yes.

On Wrong Planet NTs sometimes feel just like autistic people sometimes feel on Planet Earth.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I am not criticizing you for being ignorant about autism and our experiences. But giving your ignorant opinion is not the right thing to do most especially about what the makeup of other people are. People are touchy about that sort of thing. I discussed the disagreement about LBGTQ issues but I did not give my ignorant opinion about them. I unlike others in this thread did not and will not suggest you are an aspie based on reading a few posts of yours.


I guess that having a shortage of natural empathy is a problem that many Aspies experience, and because I was a bit rude or provocative, I came across as someone who is not empathetic enough. Therefore I got accused of being an Aspie. On the other hand, someone just told me in private, that Naturalplastic calls everyone autistic... :wink:

Empathy of course comes naturally, but it can also come from socialization and from learning about morality. Smart people can become more empathetic through their reason as well, not only through their feelings.



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11 Mar 2017, 10:15 am

Xardas wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I and many others on WP agree that there is too much stereotyping and "othering" of NT's on Wrong Planet.


Yes.

On Wrong Planet NTs sometimes feel just like autistic people sometimes feel on Planet Earth.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I am not criticizing you for being ignorant about autism and our experiences. But giving your ignorant opinion is not the right thing to do most especially about what the makeup of other people are. People are touchy about that sort of thing. I discussed the disagreement about LBGTQ issues but I did not give my ignorant opinion about them. I unlike others in this thread did not and will not suggest you are an aspie based on reading a few posts of yours.


I guess that having a shortage of natural empathy is a problem that many Aspies experience, and because I was a bit rude or provocative, I came across as someone who is not empathetic enough. Therefore I got accused of being an Aspie. On the other hand, someone just told me in private, that Naturalplastic calls everyone autistic... :wink:

.


Either youre a liar, or that "person" (if they really exist, and if they really did pm you) is a liar. I have never called a nonautistic person "autistic". Not that "autistic" is bad. I just cannot imagine any situation in which I would label a cat a "dog", black "white", or an NT "autistic", unless in the later case when the NT acts/seems autistic.



Desmilliondetoiles
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11 Mar 2017, 11:07 am

I think everyone is getting heated at this point and we should all take a deep breath at this point. I checked this out because I was curious as to what was going on. From my skimming, I gathered that it has been covered that due to discrimination, the LGBTQIA+ community is demanding visibility. They are ultimately defying those who'd rather they were invisible so that it's easier to marginalize them. That's why they have pride parades. I agree with this whole-heartedly.

It was also mentioned that Aspies or at least the general spectrum may be opposed to organizing parades because of their social awkwardness, sensory senstivities, etc. I see that many people are proud to identify. I apologize to our NT guest, but our solidarity lies in how we're different from NTs. We have only each other to relate to and yes, we can educate people about the spectrum. I have a friend who knew that I'm HFA. It felt good to know that he could acknowledge it and I hadn't told him. He just just to research it himself and he'd seen it before. Things are better understood when people have had previous exposure to them. The issue being is that since the spectrum is so broad and there are disagreements about how to define autism, it becomes a matter of "showing" that you're autistic. The LGBTQIA+ community was forced into the Spotlight by the AIDS/ HIV "epidemic." There is Rain Man but most agree that this is inaccurate representation of the spectrum as a whole. I feel it was easier before HFA was just augmented into basic autism as ASD. You try to explain now and no one understands that your condition has affected your executive functions. Being ASD is part of us, some of us accept it more than others. And that's okay.

Wrongplanet is a way for us to meet people who think the way we do. When we're such a minority, we of course tend to be frustrated with articulating our thoughts. That's natural. We don't have the words or we don't know where you don't understand. Contradictions or exceptions in etiquette are also bloody irritating. Sometimes it takes a while for initial rule to take especially if we don't understand and we get belitted as simply being "simple."

The point is there is no "we have more to be proud of than X group." We all perceive the world differently. A neurological condition is harder to simply show people or prove that it's simply a phase as opposed to how you marry or do not conform to the norm. We are ideologically a "little different", they are biologically. At the end of the day, the two communities still differ from the norm. You cannot kill an idea and nature always finds a way. You don't mean to antagonize anyone, guest, but nothing is more aggravating than having your identity invalidated or even debated by someone who seemingly does not understand the sensitivity of an issue. We appreciate you trying to understand us more but we are not interested in competing with others. Maybe we can look to X community for models for greater invisibility but works gor them may not work for us. This is a platform of solidarity, not bitching and hidden hatred. We have one another to better understand ourselves and not feel so alone in our communities.

Also, I learned to be normal through observing NTs. It took a long time but it's easier for me because girls have to understand sooner (social cues and whatnot). Do not speak for your friend whose mind you cannot simply peer into. Ask her. Your assumptions and marginalizing our accomplishments at coping only make it harder to communicate the condition.


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Desmilliondetoiles
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11 Mar 2017, 11:08 am

I think everyone is getting heated at this point and we should all take a deep breath at this point. I checked this out because I was curious as to what was going on. From my skimming, I gathered that it has been covered that due to discrimination, the LGBTQIA+ community is demanding visibility. They are ultimately defying those who'd rather they were invisible so that it's easier to marginalize them. That's why they have pride parades. I agree with this whole-heartedly.

It was also mentioned that Aspies or at least the general spectrum may be opposed to organizing parades because of their social awkwardness, sensory senstivities, etc. I see that many people are proud to identify. I apologize to our NT guest, but our solidarity lies in how we're different from NTs. We have only each other to relate to and yes, we can educate people about the spectrum. I have a friend who knew that I'm HFA. It felt good to know that he could acknowledge it and I hadn't told him. He just researched it himself and he'd seen it before. Things are better understood when people have had previous exposure to them. The issue being is that since the spectrum is so broad and there are disagreements about how to define autism, it becomes a matter of "showing" that you're autistic. The LGBTQIA+ community was forced into the Spotlight by the AIDS/ HIV "epidemic." There is Rain Man but most agree that this is inaccurate representation of the spectrum as a whole. I feel it was easier before HFA was just augmented into basic autism as ASD. You try to explain now and no one understands that your condition has not affected your executive functions. Being ASD is part of us, some of us accept it more than others. And that's okay.

Wrongplanet is a way for us to meet people who think the way we do. When we're such a minority, we of course tend to be frustrated with articulating our thoughts. That's natural. We don't have the words or we don't know where you don't understand. Contradictions or exceptions in etiquette are also bloody irritating. Sometimes it takes a while for initial rule to take especially if we don't understand the reasoning behind it and we get belitted as simply being "simple."

The point is there is no "we have more to be proud of than X group." We all perceive the world differently. A neurological condition is harder to simply show people or prove that it's simply a phase as opposed to how you marry or do not conform to the norm. We are ideologically a "little different", they are biologically. At the end of the day, the two communities still differ from the norm. You cannot kill an idea and nature always finds a way. You don't mean to antagonize anyone, guest, but nothing is more aggravating than having your identity invalidated or even debated by someone who seemingly does not understand the sensitivity of an issue. We appreciate you trying to understand us more but we are not interested in competing with others. Maybe we can look to X community for models for greater invisibility but works for them may not work for us. Overwatch has an autistic character now. This is a platform of solidarity, not bitching and hidden hatred. We have one another to better understand ourselves and not feel so alone in our communities.

Also, I learned to be normal through observing NTs. It took a long time but it's easier for me because girls have to understand sooner (social cues and whatnot). Do not speak for your friend whose mind you cannot simply peer into. Ask her. Your assumptions and marginalizing our accomplishments at coping only make it harder to communicate the condition.


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Xardas
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11 Mar 2017, 11:27 am

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
I apologize to our NT guest, but our solidarity lies in how we're different from NTs.


How are you different from us? These differences are superficial. We are all humans.

I realize that usually NTs are the ones who tell you that you are "so different", who discriminate against you, and who make you feel like outcasts with their condescending attitudes. But not all NTs are like this! And when an Aspie tells me "you are so different from us", then - trust me - I can also feel bad about such stereotyping and "othering".

Especially if this particular Aspie is someone I care about (e.g. someone I like, etc.).

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
We have only each other to relate to


I'm open-minded. I think that I'm capable of understanding Aspies despite being NT.

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
I have a friend who knew that I'm HFA.


Is this friend NT, do you think that your friend can't relate to you due to being NT?

Friends generally understand each other - solidarity is the essence of friendship.

Desmilliondetoiles wrote:
When we're such a minority, we of course tend to be frustrated with articulating our thoughts. That's natural.
We don't have the words or we don't know where you don't understand.


That makes sense. And yes, I'm trying to understand your thoughts better.



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11 Mar 2017, 11:43 am

Yes, my friend is NT. He picked it up when I tried to explain that I can't tell when people are joking.

As for differences, they are the more imperceivable differences such as how things make us feel or the gaps in NT reasoning. It's more of an experience but that doesn't mean you can't empathize. We take in stride with others but here we get to know if it's just us or a general problem. Yes, we are all human. We love being human! Being treated as human. Here, people are willing to explain things to you like you're five but still holding intelligent conversation. In real life, people expect us to already know.That feeling where you feel like a minority, you were like us in that moment. Except you can turn off the screen.

As for your willingness to learn or rather understand, I appreciate that personally. It makes teaching a bit easier. I'm not trying to offend you. You know just as well as we all do that our identity opinions on this site have a very large range. Some people border on supremacy, and that makes it harder to reach out at times. I understand that you are not an arrogant prick trying to assert you know what is best for us, and that there are nice NTs just as they're are mean ones. I do not think that my friend cannot understand me, only that he may have to make a bit of an effort of times. I just worry about him not being able to tell whether it's the condition or I need a push in the right direction. It's already hard to understand the physical limits of someone you know intimately and emotional and mental aspects are neigh impossible. I feel a little upset with myself, because as soon as he said he knew, I tried to get him to explain to others so there was no miscommunication on my part. I have to teach others myself but the willingness to learn makes a world of difference.


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