Page 1 of 2 [ 32 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Rjaye
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Nov 2006
Age: 62
Gender: Female
Posts: 823

24 May 2007, 1:59 am

Even NTs complain about people offering their help in an effort to empathise. It's a bs social game, as everyone has said, and it's one way to really tell who are your friends, and who aren't.

I like the Aspie way better. One would usually know right up front who can help and who can't/won't/is unable to help. I may tell someone I am sorry for their situation, and I will mean it, but I won't offer help unless they are a friend, or I really can help and have the time.

8)



hartzofspace
Supporting Member
Supporting Member

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,138
Location: On the Road Less Traveled

24 May 2007, 2:06 am

I remember an incident where this woman offered to help me with my move. I was moving three states away, and the drive would take about six hours. I wasn't comfortable with driving a truck all that way, as I had never driven one. She immediately offered to do part of the driving, and even offered to return the rental truck. I asked if she were sure, because that was going to be a lot of driving. She assured me that all was well, glad to help, etc. Well, the night before I was due to leave, she called and said that she couldn't do it, because she had a social engagement! I panicked, not knowing what to do. I called another friend, who informed me that this woman was notorious for backing out of promises at the last minute. She instructed me to call her back, and say that I would have to hold her to her promise, since she hadn't given me enough time to make alternate plans. Well, she did help drive, in the end, but I got nothing but attitude from her all the way there. :evil: :roll: What I wonder is, why offer to help, unless you are 100% sure that you can?


_________________
Dreams are renewable. No matter what our age or condition, there are still untapped possibilities within us and new beauty waiting to be born.
-- Dr. Dale Turner


ZanneMarie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,324

24 May 2007, 5:47 am

Hartz,

I think those people are like the ones who are chronically late. It's a complete lack of respect for the other person involved. That woman didn't care how much she put you out, only about herself. She wanted to feel like she offered something no one else would, then backed out with some excuse she thought legitimate so she could say, well at least I offered! She did not recognize or care about the consequences to you. It's as if you, as a separate person, do not exist. I once had a co-worker ,who deliberately moved out here when I did, ask to ride with me to work since her engine had blown on her car. She was chronically late when I would pick her up despite that I stated quite clearly at the beginning that she would absolutely have to be on time. One morning, she actually asked me to wait while she picked up her house! She made me wait half an hour. I was so furious with her I would not speak. Finally she said the stupid words, I'm sorry. I stopped my car right on the expressway, looked at her and said, you are most certainly not sorry. What you are is selfish and thoughtless. You think the whole world revolves around you and we should all wait while you do ridiculous things that can wait. Well your selfish and thoughtless days with me are over. You find your own way home tonight and to work tomorrow because this time that behavior cost you. I never gave her another ride and she did find her own way home. I can't stand that behavior and I will not forgive it. I don't care what their excuses are, they are rude and thoughtless. You don't need people treating you as if you live merely for the convenience.

Zanne


_________________
People say I'm crazy
doing what I'm doing,
Well they give me all kinds of warnings
to save me from ruin


CockneyRebel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Age: 49
Gender: Male
Posts: 113,289
Location: Stalag 13

24 May 2007, 6:34 am

I remember twelve years ago, when my Work Experience at the factory wasn't going too well. My parents said that if I was offered a job at the factory and I was to turn that offer down, that they would do everything that they can to help me. I've had these images in my mind, yes, I actually have a mind. It's scary, isn't it? Sid has a mind. :lol: Well, I was into the 1960s at the time and I've had these images of my parents forcing me to abandon the Mod Look, with the Beatle Haircut and the unisex looking clothes. I took the job offer that I was given, because I wasn't sure that I liked my parents' definition of their version of the word, help.



methinks
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 6 Apr 2007
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 329

24 May 2007, 8:49 am

Regarding empathy,and maybe off topic:Your examples above of NT people being so shockingly inconsiderate and selfish(which I too hate and avoid when I can),aren't they showing a huge lack of empathy?And isn't your ability to recognize their selfishness and commiserate a sign of empathy?

I'm continually surprised by how inconsiderate and seemingly unconsciencious many(assumingly "NT")people in daily life actually are.And so many folks here express great empathy(supposedly a huge problem in AS).



0_equals_true
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2007
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,038
Location: London

24 May 2007, 11:36 am

My parents can be interfering and they are neurotic. They just make me nervous. So I try to avoid telling them things if I can. It is very difficult to ask for just one thing because that is like a way in for them. They want to deliberate every detail and use their inconsistent and illogical reasoning. They are catastrophists.

When I was to have the operation on my head. I didn't discuss it with anyone for the months leading up to it. I told my friends a few days before and wrote my parents a note that I was having an operation. I said not to worry and I would be gone for the week.

Needless to say they rang me up in the hospital. But eventually agreed to see me only after the operation, which I was happy with as that was all I was aiming for. It was successful and went without any glitches as I expected.

I have to say it was one of the best decisions I've ever made, it was not selfish. I'm sure some would disagree but I don't care. This is why:

1. It saved my family worrying in the months leading up.
2. I was a lot less nervous as a result. I was mentally ready for it and didn't want to talk.
3. Even if were problems it is not like them being there would have helped or prevented. They can't go into the operating theatre. Even if they could they could not practically help.
4. My parents were able to see me in recovery, which was great.

I think my parents sort of understand it now. My Dad sort of grasped it quickly. The main thing is it is water under the bridge. They actually got over it pretty quick as I remember: P

Now as I'm trying to arrange appointment for my cognitive problems. They are still trying to butt-in. I do need their help for some things, but only when it is genuinely helpful like facts. I have done 'interviews' police style where you do it in one sitting and each separately so they can't discuss their answers. This is because people remember things differently. The information is really important to me. I didn't go into detail what the questions were for then. Later on a health professional may ask total to them or not. If so I will arrange this. I think it is best then if I wasn't there, they will answer more toughly.



MsTriste
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2005
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,307
Location: Not here

25 May 2007, 2:11 am

CockneyRebel wrote:
I remember twelve years ago, when my Work Experience at the factory wasn't going too well. My parents said that if I was offered a job at the factory and I was to turn that offer down, that they would do everything that they can to help me. I've had these images in my mind, yes, I actually have a mind. It's scary, isn't it? Sid has a mind. :lol: Well, I was into the 1960s at the time and I've had these images of my parents forcing me to abandon the Mod Look, with the Beatle Haircut and the unisex looking clothes. I took the job offer that I was given, because I wasn't sure that I liked my parents' definition of their version of the word, help.


You are a wise woman. I will try to remember that story.



ZanneMarie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,324

25 May 2007, 9:40 am

methinks wrote:
Regarding empathy,and maybe off topic:Your examples above of NT people being so shockingly inconsiderate and selfish(which I too hate and avoid when I can),aren't they showing a huge lack of empathy?And isn't your ability to recognize their selfishness and commiserate a sign of empathy?

I'm continually surprised by how inconsiderate and seemingly unconsciencious many(assumingly "NT")people in daily life actually are.And so many folks here express great empathy(supposedly a huge problem in AS).


Remember they are evaluating your empathy based solely on their understanding of the world. If you can't understand their illogical means of handling things, they assume you have no empathy. If you can't understand why they scream and cry and tell 100 people they stubbed their toe, you don't have any empathy. The list goes on and on. Frankly, I had no empathy for those thought processes and actions when I just considered myself an INTJ. They are illogical and I dismiss them because they clutter up your brain and your life and add absolutely no value. Too bad if they don't like it. I don't like their drama. There are so many times when I am glad I can't read their non-verbal communication. It's just a bunch of egocentric garbage to clutter the issue.

Sorry for the rant, I went through this yesterday and I finally just said, I don't care. You're illogical and you're thinking and reasoning is illogical. Therefore, it is irrelevant. That was empathetic, in that I understood, but not sympathetic, in that I didn't care why they did it at all.


_________________
People say I'm crazy
doing what I'm doing,
Well they give me all kinds of warnings
to save me from ruin


LabPet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Jan 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,389
Location: Canada

25 May 2007, 2:19 pm

Sorry for the rant, I went through this yesterday and I finally just said, I don't care. You're illogical and you're thinking and reasoning is illogical. Therefore, it is irrelevant. That was empathetic, in that I understood, but not sympathetic, in that I didn't care why they did it at all.[/quote]


ZanneMarie, yes! I care deeply when another is genuinely hurt and I do anything to help, or at least listen and tell them I feel sad (& I do feel sad for them). But, I do NOT care about superficial problems (ie: it's not fair X got a raise and I didn't, my sister-in-law is a psychob****, love triangle stuff, their mortgage, they didn't get their shoes on sale price.......words words words).

I have even said (if I do not just walk off first), "I do not care. No, wait, I profoundly do not care."

I do feel, but I have a limited range of emotions and if it's not there, it's just not there! I'm a dichotomy in that I care nothing for many issues, but I often will write by hand a note along with a bottle of orange juice and a dollar to any homeless person with a lost expression; Alaska is cold in the winter, especially; I feel deeply for them. I tell them I care too.

I would imagine I am an icy Human Resource nightmare......


_________________
The ones who say “You can’t” and “You won’t” are probably the ones scared that you will. - Unknown


lelia
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Age: 71
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,897
Location: Vancouver not BC, Washington not DC

26 May 2007, 1:55 am

Aylissa, I so hope you feel better soon.



DeaconBlues
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,661
Location: Earth, mostly

26 May 2007, 1:30 pm

Rjaye wrote:
Even NTs complain about people offering their help in an effort to empathise. It's a bs social game, as everyone has said, and it's one way to really tell who are your friends, and who aren't.

Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

A friend will come bail you out of jail. A real friend is sitting on the bench beside you in the cell, saying, "But damn, that was fun, wasn't it?"


_________________
Sodium is a metal that reacts explosively when exposed to water. Chlorine is a gas that'll kill you dead in moments. Together they make my fries taste good.


Smelena
Cure Neurotypicals Now!
Cure Neurotypicals Now!

User avatar

Joined: 1 Apr 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,950
Location: Australia

26 May 2007, 4:33 pm

ZanneMarie,

I love your way of thinking.

I just need to find a bit more courage to do what you do.

Unfortunately my 'NT' ness makes me worry about being polite even though the other person is being an a**hole to me.



methinks
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 6 Apr 2007
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 329

26 May 2007, 4:58 pm

So they are making "sympathy" synonymous with empathy?What does "compassion" mean?Are all emotions just a big self-indulgent punch bowl of chaos from which they drink? :wink: Do words have meanings?Where is their empathy?Are we subhuman specimens to the psych community?

And what good is their criteria doing me,anyway?I mean,really,other than(supposedly)delineating certain neurological differences,they really botch and confuse.



nannarob
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,083
Location: Queensland

26 May 2007, 10:17 pm

An NT confession: in the past I would be filled with compassion for someone's plight. My eyes would shine earnestly and I would touch them in a comforting way ....yes, reach out and touch. I felt good. Over the years I have seen some of the errors of my ways and call it 'emoting' I try very hard not to 'emote'

In my religious days I'd pray like that too. The more people I interceded for, the more I confessed my faults, the more flowery the language the better christian I was. Look at me being good.

It's a form of NT self deception.

But to defend myself I have gotten my hands dirty helping friends shift, cleaning etc and I am basically a no BS person.

Since understanding that Ubby can only deal with facts and not vague promises my words have more truth in them. And WP teaches me more every day.

Many NT's do believe they know it all. Because they feel they think it is enough. So the good ones need education.


_________________
NEVER EVER GIVE UP

I think there must be some chronic learning disability that is so prevalent among NT's that it goes unnoticed by the "experts". Krex


Rjaye
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Nov 2006
Age: 62
Gender: Female
Posts: 823

26 May 2007, 11:46 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
Rjaye wrote:
Even NTs complain about people offering their help in an effort to empathise. It's a bs social game, as everyone has said, and it's one way to really tell who are your friends, and who aren't.

Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

A friend will come bail you out of jail. A real friend is sitting on the bench beside you in the cell, saying, "But damn, that was fun, wasn't it?"


Heeheehee, exactly!

:mrgreen:



methinks
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 6 Apr 2007
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 329

26 May 2007, 11:57 pm

nannarob wrote:
But to defend myself I have gotten my hands dirty helping friends shift, cleaning etc and I am basically a no BS person.


Excellent.That is the reality of a "spiritual" life.It's very "nuts and bolts",making effort,truly helping people who truly need help.We all talk and have ideas about ourselves that aren't realisitc,everyone of us,but talk is cheap when work needs done.