Jordan Peterson Psychological Significance of the Biblical S

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techstepgenr8tion
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20 May 2017, 9:17 pm

Jordan Peterson - Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories

This is the first lecture in his series. I'm about 40 minutes in, looking forward to see what all he's going to get into.
I'll try to post more of the series in this thread as they come online.


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23 May 2017, 4:35 am

Jordan Peterson is a funny one. He sounds smart and all until at a certain point you notice mistakes, like, in his maps of meaning lectures, when he talks about the symbols in egyptian mythology, and then you check, and realize, that actually, he got it a bit wrong, and made things fit his interpretation.
and his interpretation is, obviously, a conservative one, a traditional worldview- of course he would come to that conclusion from interpreting traditional stories...
of course, the way he deals with SJWs is all fine and true.

but when he tells students about"thereal world" of people working everyday to keep the lights on and such, I can't help but think that he's missing the point.
he's, in zizek's words, only seeing the violence in systemic change, not the violence needed to keep the system as it is.
and, funnily, he's not even seeing how the people working to keep the light on are being exploited.

I think SJWs and conservatives like Peterson are fighting a proxy war, hiding their cluelessness about how to solve the real problem, which is about global (!) wealth distribution. old school class struggle, on a world stage. - all while approaching the end of our civilization due to man made climate change.


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techstepgenr8tion
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23 May 2017, 5:53 am

I'd say he's taking on something of a sisyphean task in attempting to relay to us what our culture is getting wrong by going back to try and bundle as much as he can of western religious tradition and cross-analyze it to see what the recurrent themes are.

What I really give him props on as well:
- Taking full account of the subconscious mind and how the unknown and unexamined within us can push us into stranger behavior.
- Dealing with how our vestigeal Darwinian social traits also bundle and display themselves in day to day human behavior as well as how bad it is when that shows up to be gratified in political ideology.
- Discussing what we get when religious or political systems ignore the realities of the human condition.
- He discusses Dostoyevski and Nietzsche in very important ways with respect to their insights into human irrationality as well as the confusion we'd face with the removal of God from the picture.

And I think he's doing his best to sort out what kinds of solutions society could entertain and perhaps implement - that's not an easy task because it's obvious how few options there are to get out of the social pitfalls we're in.


All of that said I wouldn't give him a free pass for getting things wrong along the way. I'd just argue that no one has really brought this sort of holistic rumination and dialogue to the public fore in years and when they did they were still (eg. Hall, Watts, Campbell, etc..) soaked in mysticism in ways that caused people to ignore the practical import of what they were saying - something that Peterson has gone to great lengths to side-step.

I suppose also that's why I also don't think any suggestion that he's 'slippery' or in any way deliberately deceitful is particularly fair. What he's saying is an incredibly difficult thing to say, especially with just how much of a knee-jerk desire many people would have to call this 'occultism masquerading as logic' and throw him out the door without a hearing. The public discourse he's drummed up wouldn't be happening without him and for as many gaps as his ideas might have the whole point of sorting those ideas out is debate. That's part of why I was really glad he went on Sam Harris's podcast twice - they both needed it and particularly I think Jordan needed to learn how to talk to someone intelligent and well spoken as himself that didn't share his axiomatic beliefs.


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24 May 2017, 12:59 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Jordan Peterson - Psychological Significance of the Biblical Stories

This is the first lecture in his series. I'm about 40 minutes in, looking forward to see what all he's going to get into.
I'll try to post more of the series in this thread as they come online.



Hello, techstepgenr8tion. I occasionally drop by here, in case someone like you shares something
out of the box enough to gain my attention. As Far as communicating here; it's only something I
rarely care to do as that means the start and stop of the Queen's English away from the greater
River of Free Flow Subconscious Mind coming to surface as it were and still does its best when
not reined in By Guidelines and Instructions of how to create order out of beauty.

Anyway; although I rarely fully agree with anything I read, see, or hear, I gain much greater
potential knowledge in art and science for creativity when I pursue all sources with an
open mind willing to discern the parts out I do not care for and gain greater Potential
Light in Creativity by absorbing the rest.

For whatever reason, I am not able to see the Videos on this site anymore with my Big iMac
Desktop but they do work on my iPHone6s; so i listened to most of the Video you shared while
Dancing around my Neighborhood Block as I do as I find the straight sidewalk moves a bit
restricting for my much fuller human potential in UniVersaL PHI-like Spiral Chi-Moves as
of course as even Science is starting to indicate that Brings a much greater Human Focus;
increasing scores even on Standard IQ tests if done an hour before the test. And duh,
our Brains use Blood so that makes common sense. Anyway, finally Science in its 'wisdom'
is starting to empirically show that Transcendent Ecstatic "Religious Experience" common
in most all religions with many different forms of metaphors to relate the essence of the
experience can and Will be gained through common activities like Trance Dance,
Meditation, and even the Fox Holes of War. I'll Take Trance Dance and no thanks to
sitting Still Meditation as I find that as boring as walking in straight lines and War
is kinda stupid to engage in unless there is no other choice; hehe.

And here is the Ted Talk by Jonathan Haidt for reference.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MYsx6WArKY

Anyway; a Major Problem in Westernized Civilizations is we are spoon fed Data Download
from Birth in activities as small as reading; and whether or not we ever spit that Data out again,
depends mostly on the Tasks assigned by culture both by Will and Requirements at Hand.
Whereas, our more primitive so-called illiterate Ancestors Learned more in right brain metaphor
in actually doing stuff in Moving, Connecting and Creating with others; Yes; out of desks.

This Video you shared related how these types of intelligences of Foragers living close together
is not necessarily inferior but different and potentially even greater. And of course as common
sense dictates when we look around us; much kinder to the Environment we call home in Balance.
When one lives close with Nature one becomes more like 'Green Nature' than a Book. Namely
a Bible or a Kuran too for example; and yes, a Science Text Book too.

We Become what we do. Use it or lose it applies. Anyway, as you may remember when I broke out
of the mold I was born into with a full serving plate as we do get still ranging from Circumcision at Birth
to mold us away a little further from Nature as an animal as original evolved to Diapers to keep
stuff in instead of out at the youngest of ages; yes, it's true, in the Summer of 2013, I finally
escaped that 'stuff' of the clothes of culture and forged my own way of creativity in a written
oral tradition way that I can now safely say has become my own Personal Bible created from
Memorial Day of 2016 to date today as I am just waiting for the fully illustrating Photos
to Download to make that happen in the 103rd MacroVerse of that in what is now
1,606,909 words Of Free Verse Poetry, named "Nether Land Bible 2017"; twice as
big as that Minuscule King James effort that took Centuries for folks to create per
the topic of your Op Piece here of course with reference Video on the Value of Mythologies
and Religions and Bibles in general too.

And per referenced Video you share per Nietzsche's Concern that Society Will not do well at
all without the Glue of a God that works per God is Dead and we better come up with a new
solution quick like risen "Overmen" who create value systems of their own and Neo escape
the Matrix as it were and still is too, in New Age Terminator and Jesus way too; Yes, it's also
true per Whitman's Philosophy/Prophecy that a new kind of Priest of the Cosmos would/Will arise in a
new age and as Alan Watts said too "the Spirit" is here now and older religions no longer are going
to have much relevance and that old Book is dangerous in "Book of Eli" ways in the wrong hands
and should be ceremoniously burned at Easter; the part that they did not consider is we are group
think social animals overall and we bond for common purpose and meaning when 'normal';
regardless of dark or light bond for a greater transcendent experience of life; yes, even in
war. And the bottom line per science is humans are not rational animals although they
have the ability to think somewhat rationally after the emotion drives the ration first
as often irrational as emotions do not have to make sense, while as Twain says,
Fiction does to sell. Reality is much stranger, i.e. Trump, Hitler, et al; no it doesn't
have to make a bit of rational sense to what the majority of group think says or
does.

Anyway, as far as i can see; the Matrix gets it correct. And yes, so does
Nietzsche in individual Overman Neo way. Unplug, turn on, tune in and
drop out per Leary and per Warhol you're likely to get at least 15 minutes
of fame if you fully pursue your human potential whether you want it or not; hehe;
as that just takes time away from human potential; tending to adoring fans, etc; haha.

And it's kind of like Building A Field of Dreams per another movie of prophecy accuracy;
Same Lover Hero story per Joseph Campbell and Jesus myth eyes too. The only He that is
gonna come back again and rise from the Ashes to truly be Phoenix born again with the
wonderment and amazement of a child's eyes to do amazing feats of human potential in Army
be all you can "John 14:12" and "Lucifer" be way with no rules or instructions or guidelines in
tightly fitting books of Uniforms is you not he. Hehe, you have no idea how hard it was not
to Capitalize both all three letters of You and God too but hey; in the realm of harm no other;
play by Community rules or get deleted or banned if you want to say something that stays.

Smiles my Friend. The Neo path is not easy but it sure is fun. I had to find someone with enough
Verbal Intelligence and Attention Span to fully share this moment of personal achievement
of writing not only the longest Bible in the World in one year but also the longest long form
poem ever per the other World Record back in India named the Mahābhārata at a minuscule
1.8 Million words as my full Long Form Poem at 774 MacroVerses at the newest publish
this afternoon will continue to exceed 4 Million words in a period of 45 months along
with 7400 Miles of Public Dance in a free style martial arts and ballet way in the same
period of 45 months too. And just an oh by the way I am now up to Leg pressing 1030 Lbs
at 33 reps as hey, you gotta have strong legs to public dance 166.66 miles a month. and remember
i started out as a 'worm nerd' too per Sheldon Cooper Stereotype and Stuff like that mistaken for
a girl by the Cashiers at McDonalds at age 13 and yes most definitely professionally diagnosed
by Four professionals with Asperger's Syndrome and Bi-Polar like that should be a surprise
in VanGogh way to; hehe. Anyway, I master the highs in Balance my Friend as any
Buddha and or Yogi or and Lao Tzu or mythological Krishna can and will do too
in Superman and Batman and other Lover Hero Jungian and Campbell archetypes too.

Anyway, when i first recovered back in 2013; as still fully illustrated here. I clearly stated
that I have no limits or pre-set expectations now. I said the sky is not even the limit as
with Imagination and Creativity set free from cultural limits and pre-set expectations
there are no limits as far as what so-called 'normal modern human eyes' now see.

Most Everyone pooh poohed it then except you as you see a 'little' farther too.
Keep Seeking my friend and you will find much more too; As remember, I didn't
even start until age 50 on Thanksgiving day on this Internet site where one word in
a mountain of pain and numb of permanently and total assessed disability in 19 disorders
to escape ends up now in around 12 Million words of total effort including straight lines
of only so-called 'rational discussion' too. The biggest achievement my Friend was/is the
Dance and still is at age 53 now approaching 57 on June 6th where my 'normal peers'
are sitting on Mall Benches with Pot Bellies extending watching Vicariously with
Mirror Neurons only excited while I am exciting the Dance of College age women
to the tune of over 1000 selfies of smiles with them too.

I came her for a cure to my pain and numb and eventually found it.

I return with what's possible.

Fact is it is possible; at least for me, I prove A Real Miracle of Human Potential in Epigenetic
Way of Unpacking DNA in adaptation to new Environmental Challenge in Struggle for Positive
Change and Neuroplastic Molding of Mind and Body Balance in a real Flesh and Blood Soul
of Spirit of Heart must be possible for others too, as i am no more special than a Grain
of Sand that holds up a Mountain of Human Love that can be 'them' too, if they try enough too.

It's true life is a trial but with Effort, Victory can and Will come through too as the ultimate result of test
with a smile too. Okay, back to the Drawing Board as my 104th/775th MacroVerse Will be appropriately
named "PHI Bible" as this new MacroVerse reaches 1.618 Million words in a one year
Span of time. I couldn't even write a creative paper in college or do more than a firstly,
secondly, technical grocery list as a paper at work; except for an anomaly winning
a Christmas Story in middle school among a two homeroom competition of
80 children and a Philosophy Class in College. The difference is, I wasn't
trying to do it with think; I Sung from heart; another hemisphere
of being then that I live in now at Can and Will. Baby steps here
I took at first to get here now; and now I fly my Friend in
Imagination and Creativity's Fruition and I'll leave now
before the form of what I do
becomes Magic
more as essence
than sidewalk
talk
and
walk.

Life is a Dance now
when we find it my friend free for all more.
Best wishes to you; be back someday as usual.
Like the end of the Matrix Trilogy when the little girl
creates her own reality with Imagination and Creativity
come to Fruition and the Oracle says nice and she says i did it
for Neo and the little girl asks the Oracle will he be back and she
says I expect he will as believe was/is her magic and real power too as it is
in archetype of us as Divine Feminine Love/Grace too. And the Will and Strength
of the Architect in Rational way; well that's helpful in order but it doesn't make
the magic
of when
he and
her becomes
you and you are
the one that comes back now as he or she or whatever eTc else.
It's a story of Hope my Friend for S or J or F in Superman way of U2..:)


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shlaifu
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25 May 2017, 1:22 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I'd say he's taking on something of a sisyphean task in attempting to relay to us what our culture is getting wrong by going back to try and bundle as much as he can of western religious tradition and cross-analyze it to see what the recurrent themes are.

What I really give him props on as well:
- Taking full account of the subconscious mind and how the unknown and unexamined within us can push us into stranger behavior.
- Dealing with how our vestigeal Darwinian social traits also bundle and display themselves in day to day human behavior as well as how bad it is when that shows up to be gratified in political ideology.
- Discussing what we get when religious or political systems ignore the realities of the human condition.
- He discusses Dostoyevski and Nietzsche in very important ways with respect to their insights into human irrationality as well as the confusion we'd face with the removal of God from the picture.

And I think he's doing his best to sort out what kinds of solutions society could entertain and perhaps implement - that's not an easy task because it's obvious how few options there are to get out of the social pitfalls we're in.


All of that said I wouldn't give him a free pass for getting things wrong along the way. I'd just argue that no one has really brought this sort of holistic rumination and dialogue to the public fore in years and when they did they were still (eg. Hall, Watts, Campbell, etc..) soaked in mysticism in ways that caused people to ignore the practical import of what they were saying - something that Peterson has gone to great lengths to side-step.

I suppose also that's why I also don't think any suggestion that he's 'slippery' or in any way deliberately deceitful is particularly fair. What he's saying is an incredibly difficult thing to say, especially with just how much of a knee-jerk desire many people would have to call this 'occultism masquerading as logic' and throw him out the door without a hearing. The public discourse he's drummed up wouldn't be happening without him and for as many gaps as his ideas might have the whole point of sorting those ideas out is debate. That's part of why I was really glad he went on Sam Harris's podcast twice - they both needed it and particularly I think Jordan needed to learn how to talk to someone intelligent and well spoken as himself that didn't share his axiomatic beliefs.


No, not deceitful- in the sense that I believe, he believes what he's saying and is saying it with sincerity- however, that doesn't make it 'right'. And what he's saying is not hard to say: tradition is has worked as a grown structure to oranize society, and as a grown structure, it adapted to humanity's ideas as well as the reality of biology.
However, tradition couldn't keep up with ideas and technical possibilities over the last 500 years.

and he uses his clinical work as a proof for why there's problems with post-tradition. but here he exposes his bias: he only works with people struggling with the situation, not the ones who are doing fine with it.
and he has never treated women with hysteria- a mental illness that vanished when women got the right to actually change their own situation.


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techstepgenr8tion
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25 May 2017, 7:05 pm

aghogday wrote:
Life is a Dance now
when we find it my friend free for all more.
Best wishes to you; be back someday as usual.
Like the end of the Matrix Trilogy when the little girl
creates her own reality with Imagination and Creativity
come to Fruition and the Oracle says nice and she says i did it
for Neo and the little girl asks the Oracle will he be back and she
says I expect he will as believe was/is her magic and real power too as it is
in archetype of us as Divine Feminine Love/Grace too. And the Will and Strength
of the Architect in Rational way; well that's helpful in order but it doesn't make
the magic
of when
he and
her becomes
you and you are
the one that comes back now as he or she or whatever eTc else.
It's a story of Hope my Friend for S or J or F in Superman way of U2..:)


TY

I'm in a position where what I've been doing with BOTA, AMORC, and all that is something I'm increasingly pulling down to the physical. I've realized that while I might intellectually be a fast-mover, with spiritual development I'm pretty slow and I think it comes from where I sense I'm at - ie. having lot of fundamental neuroses and cracks in my foundation that need to be dealt with before I dance with the shakti or shekinah so to speak.

Another piece is I just started a new job, I'm trying to learn ASP.Net Core and MVC to at least a modest level of work capacity in the next couple months so I probably won't be doing a lot with myself aside from having a lot of frantic dreams at night about misattaching view models, misplacing public classes in Razor documents, magical .json files that do gematria on my builds, and whatever other things my brain might use to torment my dreams and get even with me for what I'll be doing to it on a daily basis.

Good luck on the book! 1,618,000'ish words is probably close to 10,000 pages, 6,500'ish if you press in 250 words per page.


_________________
“Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity. For the crowd believes that if it cannot see to the bottom of something it must be profound. It is so timid and dislikes going into the water.” - Friedrich Nietzsche


techstepgenr8tion
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25 May 2017, 7:23 pm

shlaifu wrote:
No, not deceitful- in the sense that I believe, he believes what he's saying and is saying it with sincerity- however, that doesn't make it 'right'.

I really can't say anything to that one way or another because I'm not even clear on what you're criticizing specifically.

shlaifu wrote:
And what he's saying is not hard to say: tradition is has worked as a grown structure to oranize society, and as a grown structure, it adapted to humanity's ideas as well as the reality of biology.
However, tradition couldn't keep up with ideas and technical possibilities over the last 500 years.

Do you think it's possible that he's more interested in mining the past for touchstones on how to morally/socially synchronize a liberal and largely secular-humanist culture without the non-theistic cults and religions laying waste to the project?

As far as I can tell I don't think he has any particular Grundy issues, he even says a lot of positive things about psychedelics and for as much as C-16 bothered him, Gad Saad, and a lot of other people for it's forcing words into people's mouths he doesn't seem to have a problem with people being on the LGBT spectrum. If anything he does seem hawkish on responsibility but I have to be honest about something in my own observations that line up with his, our culture has been - for quite a while - all about generating rights but has seemed to be dead against discussion of responsibilities. I don't in any way advocate that stigmatizing people who haven't achieved a lot economically, scholastically, etc.. on grounds that they're not responsible is even remotely fair or should be part of the take away from that. Rather I just think that people are in a lot of trouble of their psychologically ungrounded and even rebelling against the fast-and-loose of things right now because they can't find what one might call 'helpful resistence', ie. thrusting blocks, things in culture that you can find that are firm or solid. A lot of guys are, as well, missing out on adulthood because the typical lifestyles that agitated growth, such as being a parent or having substantial work in something more than a cubicle, are drying up. While I don't think everyone going back to church is the solution I do think that if this is a flux wound as our culture makes valid changes to its fine tuning we're doing a lot to rub salt into it rather than help it heal. In that way I like that he calls attention to some of what's been thrown out with the bathwater based on confusions of correlation, association, etc.. which were critical tools in our arsenal for making a better world. To be fair and name some of those tools explicitely - logic, reason, self-awareness, patience, personal temperance, integrity, etc.. In a secular culture it seems like those should even be more prized because they are the glue that holds things together.

shlaifu wrote:
and he uses his clinical work as a proof for why there's problems with post-tradition. but here he exposes his bias: he only works with people struggling with the situation, not the ones who are doing fine with it.
and he has never treated women with hysteria- a mental illness that vanished when women got the right to actually change their own situation.

Well, I think he's likely due to have a debate with someone of high-caliber who'd be able to bring that to the table, ie. the other side of the equation that Peterson's work isn't quite as focused on. He speaks often about his concerns, back in the 80's, of what it meant for there to be a USSR and a cold war, whether capitalism vs. communism were just arbitrary modes, and he came down on the side that the ways our environment shape sexual and social selection keep us in somewhat of a wilderness frame of reference - that anything that misses millions of years of what's been successful in human survival and tries to bulldoze that terrain to fit an ideologically formulated map (ie. crack millions of eggs to make a colossal omelet) not only won't achieve its goals but will bring the worst types of hell on earth down on people, along the lines of what Solzhenitsyn discussed in Gulag Archipelago.

That said, I think if he was able to talk to someone whose highly intelligent and perhaps even shared most of his concerns but had very different ways of addressing them, ie. coming from the left, that it would be a respectful debate and that he'd conditionally accept a lot of the other person's points.

A funny thing though, you'd know a lot more about this than I would because I tend to identify with the center or slightly center-right, I've heard even some people on the left where I was scratching my head trying to think of anything I'd disagree with them on. First and foremost actually I'm thinking of Brendan O'Niell. From so much of what he's said I get the impression that if you put him, Douglas Murray, and Jordan Peterson in a room you wouldn't know they disagree on much of anything. This is where I'm not entirely sure I understand what's going on with the whole left-right spectrum anymore. Jordan and similarly Jonathan Haidt by most people's standards being center-left or more 'classic' liberals in, at least Jonathan Haidt's self-described manner, the John Stuart Mill sense of the word. If anything it's almost like the whole thing is breaking down into more primary categories of authoritarian vs. liberal/libertarian and so the libertarian right, center, and left is finding more and more in common while the authoritarian left and right are still sort of hunkered down on their own islands and lobbing grenades at each other and anyone between whose not them.


_________________
“Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity. Those who would like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity. For the crowd believes that if it cannot see to the bottom of something it must be profound. It is so timid and dislikes going into the water.” - Friedrich Nietzsche


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25 May 2017, 8:15 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Life is a Dance now
when we find it my friend free for all more.
Best wishes to you; be back someday as usual.
Like the end of the Matrix Trilogy when the little girl
creates her own reality with Imagination and Creativity
come to Fruition and the Oracle says nice and she says i did it
for Neo and the little girl asks the Oracle will he be back and she
says I expect he will as believe was/is her magic and real power too as it is
in archetype of us as Divine Feminine Love/Grace too. And the Will and Strength
of the Architect in Rational way; well that's helpful in order but it doesn't make
the magic
of when
he and
her becomes
you and you are
the one that comes back now as he or she or whatever eTc else.
It's a story of Hope my Friend for S or J or F in Superman way of U2..:)


TY

I'm in a position where what I've been doing with BOTA, AMORC, and all that is something I'm increasingly pulling down to the physical. I've realized that while I might intellectually be a fast-mover, with spiritual development I'm pretty slow and I think it comes from where I sense I'm at - ie. having lot of fundamental neuroses and cracks in my foundation that need to be dealt with before I dance with the shakti or shekinah so to speak.

Another piece is I just started a new job, I'm trying to learn ASP.Net Core and MVC to at least a modest level of work capacity in the next couple months so I probably won't be doing a lot with myself aside from having a lot of frantic dreams at night about misattaching view models, misplacing public classes in Razor documents, magical .json files that do gematria on my builds, and whatever other things my brain might use to torment my dreams and get even with me for what I'll be doing to it on a daily basis.

Good luck on the book! 1,618,000'ish words is probably close to 10,000 pages, 6,500'ish if you press in 250 words per page.


I think, it's pretty obvious why Tibetan Monks stay away from coming down from the Mountain; too many
distractions in all the ways that and who can and will come. There is no way I could have gone to the places
I go now with Mindful Ecstatic Transcendent Awareness as Another Experiential Dimension of Life and
stay there, if i still existed in a world of either work or school. Or, if did not find a way to rid myself
of all illusory fears and limitations and expectations too. Anyway that's a lot of words to describe
a Nirvana; a Satori; a Heaven Now; or Simply Bliss that lasts where most of the experience is
internally driven with no words at all. For me that was key. Escaping the part between
my ears, of course as metaphor for neocortical existence; and metaphor further
for there is no escaping any of that; just Balance that comes before
the Continuing Heaven. Words will never do An experience
of this kind of Beauty, Justice; but I try my friend and haha;
I'll never publish that monster on paper because paper won't
work with 100K photos and thousands of YouTube Videos now
too that are integral to the Emotional and Sensory Fuller Experience
to Find Ecstatic Transcendence now where one loses both ego of self
and gains A true self of so much higher human potential. Anyway, best
wishes for your work endeavors; a reality of life that is hard to escape.
And life does feel much better without fear associated stuff for sure.
Nice to drop by and once again back to the drawing board as those
1.618 Million words are closing in now for another online publish..
Love
Electronic
Style..;)


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Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !

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26 May 2017, 8:50 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
No, not deceitful- in the sense that I believe, he believes what he's saying and is saying it with sincerity- however, that doesn't make it 'right'.

I really can't say anything to that one way or another because I'm not even clear on what you're criticizing specifically.


I was referreing to the beginning of the last paragraph of your previous post, which is:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I suppose also that's why I also don't think any suggestion that he's 'slippery' or in any way deliberately deceitful is particularly fair.


regarding the rest: I think what I'm trying to say is, he's defending the moral freedoms of capitalism and attacking the communist on these grounds.
BUT he's also defending the capitalist model of economy, and inadvertently attacking the communist one.
while he's right on the moral grounds, I think he doesn't even realize he's defending capitalism on the level of economics, and here I see no reason to defend it.
Capitalism today has labour camps, slavery, incredible poverty and hunger due to the way it works economically, where stalinism had these things because of its (moral)ideology.
Peterson likes to point out the soul crushing labour camps where prisoners would be made to work on completely senseless tasks, - to break them psychologically. It wasn't even slave-labour in that sense.
Well.
Foxconn has nets around its factories, so the people making Apple products can't kill themselves.
Sounds soul crushing enough to me, to make the comparison.

I'm not trying and don't want to defend Stalinism. But I sure as hell will not defend the capitalist mode of production.
I do enjoy the freedoms of capitalism- and this is where I agree with Peterson, and with his stance towards SJWs and freedom of speech.
But I refuse to accept that we can't live in a society without labour camps, communist or capitalist.
And this is where I criticize Peterson: in focussing on the moral side, he's ignoring the economic side.


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26 May 2017, 7:09 pm

I'd have to say I fully agree with you on the problems of capitalism.

In a less extreme case, even in our own economy in the US, I've had tons of jobs where the irresponsibility of higher-ups rolled down hill so badly that new employees were getting chewed out weekly for not solving systemic problems in the company that were over ten years old and everyone yelling at them had ten years to get a head start on figuring out what the problem was and how to solve it but simply chose not to.

I've also had quite a few work engagements that were bad enough and the supervisors poor enough at either delegating work (sitting in the office for 35 hours out of 40 drumming my fingers trying to look busy with nothing to do and trying to suffice on Youtube lectures), other times when I was being asked weekly to do an eight hour task in four hours flawlessly or be judged on my inability not to (while they also had, for the rest of the week, not a lot for me to do), and many of these really bad employers having no clue how to even tell who was performing well vs. poorly - they just sort of eyeballed it.

From that I found myself in a position where I started feeling like every new job or temp-to-hire assignment I got was a round of Russian roulette - ie. the bullet in the chamber, ie. the incompetent boss who'd hang me out to dry no matter what I tried to do right or who'd refuse to teach me anything at all and summarily fire me accordingly - was an unknown number of clicks away. It scared the hell out of me and made me realize just how hard most people have it. Even though living with my parents at 37 after graduating highest honors from college at 26 (a few long-term jobs between but none of them stable enough for me to feel comfortable buying a place and all of that) I have to consider myself really lucky - ie. I can't even imagine the stress of what it's like for someone 30 or 40 IQ points lighter who had to leave the house at 18 or who has no one to lean on has to go through or just what types of sychophants they'd be forced to become, even to the worst boss possible, so they don't have to worry about sleeping under the stars or eating out of garbage cans.

I have plenty of of relatives who have the old 1960's or 70's Republican ethic of "They're lazy welfare cases - lettem work or starve - you'll see em' find jobs real quick!" and at the same time they'll be shocked and horrified to hear of a lot of the abuses or candidly worrying about automation and labor a few moments later and not recognizing the disconnect. They seem to bear the cognitive dissonance with that stoically and I think it's because they believe that capitalism is still the second worst system to everything else. Unfortunately to an extent, if the other option were the far ends of Marxism, I'd have to agree that it's the second-worst of the two alternatives. For a while I've really been considering UBI a possible third alternative, I think it would have terrible consequences in terms of employers further slashing wages but if human employment drastically decreases we're not making a choice between what we have in 2017 and something better, we're sizing up a decision between 30% unemployment and the destruction of order and civil society as we know it vs. a UBI which would probably be wretched but it would beat the alternative.

A couple things I think on this point:

1) Automation's going to make this significantly worse - if we keep up at the current rate office politics will be closer to Hunger Games and employers will likely go from sloppy and disorganized to straight-up pathological, even sadistic.

2) We need to rethink a lot of things - particularly work and currency. For example I look at how the dollar works and, not being an economist but knowing a little bit about how things find equalibrium, it seems like there's nothing we can do that won't adjust back to square one. Raising minimum wage to $15 would cause major inflation and automation in service sectors. Automating home building to significantly deflate the cost of shelter would be great for making dwellings affortable but would also have dire economic consequences around the other side with respect to crushing both domestic and foreign real estate investment. I'm not sure what our options are with that aside from having perhaps multiple types of currency - ie. labor currency, philanthropic currency, etc.. It seems like we could easily stay in traction and automate everything but end up in misery because the mathematics of money seems to be a dynamic equilibrium.


All of that said though - I have to admit that in light of everything else Jordan Peterson talks about I have to consider that a small thing. Similar to his take on MGTOW being an easy-way out for guys who want to weasle their way out of the effort of being a husband or father; his take in that regard reminds me a lot of things I've heard Michael Medved say. For all of the absolutely critical things about human conscious and subconscious, the need for truth and the search for truth, the need for integrity, the dignity as well of the religions and mysteries, etc. that he's brought to the fore I still consider his economic views a small issue in comparison. That and - I think it would only take one or two debates between him and someone as sharp as he is who has a different take on the matter for that to be highlighted and sorted out.


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26 May 2017, 10:46 pm

Not a new bible story but lo and behold - actually covering a lot of what I was just talking about! He also touches on all the nasty side effects, ie. revolution and male-on-male homocide, that skyrockets with great economic inequalities.


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27 May 2017, 10:59 pm


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30 May 2017, 2:26 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Not a new bible story but lo and behold - actually covering a lot of what I was just talking about! He also touches on all the nasty side effects, ie. revolution and male-on-male homocide, that skyrockets with great economic inequalities.


yeah. But.
I mean, he does acknowledge some of the problems, but in the way he defends tradition against "neo-marxists", he paints them overly evil and disqualifies the reasons for these people to become what he calls marxists.

so... what bugs me is that some kid screams "marxism", and he angrily shouts back "no! idiot! gulag! - patriarchy is what's keeping the lights on!" and then, seperate from that matter, he discusses inequality - but not in relation to the neo-marxist who wants to change things. those he discredits and humiliates.

I've been adding naomi klein's "this changes everything" and all her other stuff to my playlist recently.
while I don't think the neo-marxist is right, I think he's got good reasons. The conclusion is not good, probably, but I don't mind so much, ideologically. whatever works. and I think the world order peterson is defending is not working and has been on this path for 40 years.

I guess I'm with zygmunt bauman, when he says we're living in times of interregnum: the old thing stopped working, and the new thing hasn't arrived yet. Peterson is defending the old thing, SJWs are fighting for a dangerous new thing. and frankly, they are, more often than not, not very smart.


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30 May 2017, 6:45 pm

I guess I'd stand with him that throwing away the dysfunctional for the even more dysfunctional isn't progress. On some level I think we're hoping that technology will offer some of the solutions to its on problems - I'm cautiously optimistic on that. The closest I can come to endorsing anything close to Marxism is that it seems like a partial UBI would be a significant stress reducer, help people get by who are earning less, and at least have something to partially lean on so it isn't an absolute battle to find $500 in case of an emergency and I think that sort of partial UBI may come into play in the next ten or fifteen years as we automate more people out of high-paying jobs. If it gets bad enough and enough people were trying to live on that amount of partial UBI would move toward full.


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31 May 2017, 7:34 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I guess I'd stand with him that throwing away the dysfunctional for the even more dysfunctional isn't progress. On some level I think we're hoping that technology will offer some of the solutions to its on problems - I'm cautiously optimistic on that. The closest I can come to endorsing anything close to Marxism is that it seems like a partial UBI would be a significant stress reducer, help people get by who are earning less, and at least have something to partially lean on so it isn't an absolute battle to find $500 in case of an emergency and I think that sort of partial UBI may come into play in the next ten or fifteen years as we automate more people out of high-paying jobs. If it gets bad enough and enough people were trying to live on that amount of partial UBI would move toward full.


Haha. Yes. The machines produce, the rich people sell the products to the poor, and the poor pay with the money the government took from the rich.
It's like marxism, only the poor stay poor, while getting paid for consuming and the rich own it all. Maybe even the poor, who are at this point a) useless in this postcapitalistic society and b) utterly powerless.

I really want ro like the idea of UBI, but I think there's serious flaws if you think two, three generations into it. Or maybe just a decade, who knows, stuff is going faster than theoreticians can analyse the world, let alone build concepts and deduct conclusions....


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