maybe people shouldn't date...

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The_Face_of_Boo
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14 Jun 2017, 1:01 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Closet Genious wrote:
I agree Sweetleaf, some people shouldn't date. I am a prime example of that. Luckily I don't want to either, I completely lost interest in it long ago, for a myriad of reasons.

The primary reason is that relationships never made me truly happy anways. I've been in 3 relationships and 2 of them were actually pretty good matches for me I'd say, so I don't think it's because I didn't find good enough women, it's just how I feel about relationships. I value my own freedom and self expression too much to sacrifice it.

The rest comes down to the general gender dynamic, and how mate selection works, which I find offensive and dehumanizing. I'll boil it down to: Love is not unconditional, or even remotely close to being it.

I find it difficult to think of women as individuals, when they generally have such a strong own group preference, that they will defend even bad behaviour from other women. And most men will defend women too because they are controlled by their instincts. Women also seem to care more what other people think of them, so they rarely admit to their own faults. Yes, I do think women are generally more manipulative and dishonest than men. That doesn't mean men can't be dishonest too, they are, especially when blinded by *****. But women seem to be very concerned with 'tone' and being nice.

I don't care about what is rude or nice, all I care about is truth. Some may see me as bitter, but then I see those people as painfully naive.

Something I am honestly very bitter about though, is the fact that within a couple of hours some mod will come and lock down this thread. Because apparently, censoring what people are, and are not allowed to talk about is totally okay. I just have to say, the pattern of this censorship is really obvious. I not saying the mods have an agenda, but they are certainly very biased when it comes to what they find toxic.


I think women can be more manipulating, I've experienced that myself in the past...but guys can commonly be hard headed and full of themselves at least a little I guess it can be more direct than more manipulative methods of being difficult.

I guess part of my thing is I don't really fit in with other women, so being lumped with them is annoying...and I think a lot of generalizations even encourage some of the more negative behavior...like some women think they are supposed to be a certain way so they try to maintain that and some even pick on other women to try and get them to 'conform'. Of course I think in a lot of ways men try to be a certain way because its how the gender is 'supposed' to be and get picked on for not fitting into that.

Also I think there tend to be various truths...I prefer to be more pleasant and not rude, but if a truth was that important I suppose I wouldn't hold back, but sometimes I care more about pleasant interaction than being right.



You, both of you, are generalizing about women and promoting the false stereotype that they're more manipulative than men.

Who is generalizing now? :roll:



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14 Jun 2017, 5:41 am

Closet Genious wrote:
The primary reason is that relationships never made me truly happy anways. I've been in 3 relationships and 2 of them were actually pretty good matches for me I'd say, so I don't think it's because I didn't find good enough women, it's just how I feel about relationships. I value my own freedom and self expression too much to sacrifice it.

The rest comes down to the general gender dynamic, and how mate selection works, which I find offensive and dehumanizing. I'll boil it down to: Love is not unconditional, or even remotely close to being it.


Yes! I know unconditional love: my daughter's love and not a single romantic relationship ever came close to it.
Ever.
In the initial phases of those relationships I have felt like "this may be IT" sometimes (probably blinded by chemistry, hormones, whatnot, a feeling of "we're soulmates!") just to be bitterly disappointed later (more or less, but always). People were pushing me to change many things about myself to better fulfil their expectations, to in a way become a better usable object, instead of just being honest about our differences and leave me (which I'd fully respect). So it was all conditional, even if it seemed unconditional at first.

I could never place myself in the gender dynamic as I've always felt kind of what you'd call now agender. Anything uber-masculine or uber-feminine and the whole game between the sexes has always confused me and to some point - repulsed me. As a teenager I wished the world would turn non-gender-polarized and finish with all that nonsense. I felt huge nostalgia about times when I was like 9 or 10 years old and everything was just kind of more genuine, a few friendships I had - no hidden agenda, no expectations, innocent world forever lost for me.
I guess I could recreate it all in a close friendship, but finding/maintaining one at the age of 35 is... really hard. Maybe it will happen when I'm old and when I have all the time in world to wander around knitting/ fishing/ astronomy/ crafting clubs for the oldies ;) I could find myself a lovely Margaret or John to wander around botanical gardens with and have afternoon tea together and hug on the garden swing, under a fluffy blanket. I don't really need much more, it seems, and I don't think I'd miss the romance at all if I had companionship, understanding and total acceptance of another person.



rdos
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14 Jun 2017, 8:25 am

Closet Genious wrote:
The primary reason is that relationships never made me truly happy anways. I've been in 3 relationships and 2 of them were actually pretty good matches for me I'd say, so I don't think it's because I didn't find good enough women, it's just how I feel about relationships. I value my own freedom and self expression too much to sacrifice it.


I think that if you lost your freedom or self-expression in your past relationships, then they were not good matches after all. Maybe good matches based on interests, but not good matches in areas that count.

Closet Genious wrote:
The rest comes down to the general gender dynamic, and how mate selection works, which I find offensive and dehumanizing.


Now you are simply saying that you dislike NT mate selection, and then assume that's all there is to it. Faulty assumption. NT mate selection is not a human universal. There are people that don't work that way, and that will play without those.

Closet Genious wrote:
I'll boil it down to: Love is not unconditional, or even remotely close to being it.


Which is a faulty conclusion based on faulty assumptions.



Closet Genious
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14 Jun 2017, 10:33 am

rdos wrote:
Closet Genious wrote:
The primary reason is that relationships never made me truly happy anways. I've been in 3 relationships and 2 of them were actually pretty good matches for me I'd say, so I don't think it's because I didn't find good enough women, it's just how I feel about relationships. I value my own freedom and self expression too much to sacrifice it.


I think that if you lost your freedom or self-expression in your past relationships, then they were not good matches after all. Maybe good matches based on interests, but not good matches in areas that count.

Closet Genious wrote:
The rest comes down to the general gender dynamic, and how mate selection works, which I find offensive and dehumanizing.


Now you are simply saying that you dislike NT mate selection, and then assume that's all there is to it. Faulty assumption. NT mate selection is not a human universal. There are people that don't work that way, and that will play without those.

Closet Genious wrote:
I'll boil it down to: Love is not unconditional, or even remotely close to being it.


Which is a faulty conclusion based on faulty assumptions.


It is based upon both my general experience in life and thorough observation of people, but also spending thousands of hours reading philosophy and psychology books and deep introspection.

I guess you're trying to make the point that my experience would be different dating an aspie. I have not dated a woman on the spectrum, but based on my observations of the women on this forum atleast, I'd say that most of the same mechanisms are at work when it comes to mate selection and gender dynamics. So in my estimation, the difference between NT women and aspies in this regard is small, at best.

I appreciate your response, but I cannot go back to being naive. I've already felt the sudden decrease in affection from a partner when I lost my job, and the sudden attention from women who used to reject me, when I started doing really well. Women's love and affection is always in relation to how well you are doing CURRENTLY, and thus love is not unconditional at all. I am not angry about it, I can't change it anyway. But I just find it exhausting, stressful and not worth it at all.



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14 Jun 2017, 1:36 pm

Closet Genious wrote:
rdos wrote:
Closet Genious wrote:
The primary reason is that relationships never made me truly happy anways. I've been in 3 relationships and 2 of them were actually pretty good matches for me I'd say, so I don't think it's because I didn't find good enough women, it's just how I feel about relationships. I value my own freedom and self expression too much to sacrifice it.


I think that if you lost your freedom or self-expression in your past relationships, then they were not good matches after all. Maybe good matches based on interests, but not good matches in areas that count.

Closet Genious wrote:
The rest comes down to the general gender dynamic, and how mate selection works, which I find offensive and dehumanizing.


Now you are simply saying that you dislike NT mate selection, and then assume that's all there is to it. Faulty assumption. NT mate selection is not a human universal. There are people that don't work that way, and that will play without those.

Closet Genious wrote:
I'll boil it down to: Love is not unconditional, or even remotely close to being it.


Which is a faulty conclusion based on faulty assumptions.


It is based upon both my general experience in life and thorough observation of people, but also spending thousands of hours reading philosophy and psychology books and deep introspection.

I guess you're trying to make the point that my experience would be different dating an aspie. I have not dated a woman on the spectrum, but based on my observations of the women on this forum atleast, I'd say that most of the same mechanisms are at work when it comes to mate selection and gender dynamics. So in my estimation, the difference between NT women and aspies in this regard is small, at best.

I appreciate your response, but I cannot go back to being naive. I've already felt the sudden decrease in affection from a partner when I lost my job, and the sudden attention from women who used to reject me, when I started doing really well. Women's love and affection is always in relation to how well you are doing CURRENTLY, and thus love is not unconditional at all. I am not angry about it, I can't change it anyway. But I just find it exhausting, stressful and not worth it at all.


Well I don't know about always I don't love my boyfriend any less or have less affection for him when he isn't doing that well. We had a concerning period for a bit where he had quit his job and had to find something new but he didn't get less affection from me, at one point we even considered if he didn't find something in time we'd have to go stay with his parents till we could manage to do better financially. And when I first met him he was sleeping on the floor of an apartment living room...I slept there with him plenty of times before he ever was able to afford a bed.

I have always kind of wanted a relationship without having some of the issues I have observed among some couples such as the woman being too materialistic and the guy willing to do anything for her regardless of how crappy she treats him and things like that. Or being in a relationship with someone with a different lifestyle so it ends up one person wants to drink for instance and the other person constantly disapproves and hassles them about it. I didn't want to be like that, so I am not.

But to each their own if you're happier on your own, certainly does give you more freedom to just do what you want and not have to consider another person. Either way my affection for my boyfriend is not related to how well he's doing...and as rare as that may be I certainly cannot be the only female like that, who doesn't let lack of material things or financial struggles cause a rift in the relationship. The only reason finances matter to either of us at all is so we can live together with a roof over our head, well and we both have fantasized about winning the lottery but who hasn't.


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rdos
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14 Jun 2017, 1:57 pm

Closet Genious wrote:
It is based upon both my general experience in life and thorough observation of people, but also spending thousands of hours reading philosophy and psychology books and deep introspection.


All you can read in current psychology books is about how NTs operate. I don't think philosophy has the answer either. Experience through observation (or even better, participation) is the only way.

Closet Genious wrote:
I guess you're trying to make the point that my experience would be different dating an aspie. I have not dated a woman on the spectrum, but based on my observations of the women on this forum atleast, I'd say that most of the same mechanisms are at work when it comes to mate selection and gender dynamics.


You shouldn't "date" aspies. That will setup things in the NT way. You need to do natural ND courtship if you want to experience unconditional love with NDs, otherwise, they will just play their cultural roles, all which were defined by NTs.

Closet Genious wrote:
So in my estimation, the difference between NT women and aspies in this regard is small, at best.


In my experience, it is HUGE. :-)

Closet Genious wrote:
I appreciate your response, but I cannot go back to being naive. I've already felt the sudden decrease in affection from a partner when I lost my job, and the sudden attention from women who used to reject me, when I started doing really well. Women's love and affection is always in relation to how well you are doing CURRENTLY, and thus love is not unconditional at all. I am not angry about it, I can't change it anyway. But I just find it exhausting, stressful and not worth it at all.


Women that show different affection based on your job or success are not relationship material. They typically can be detected if you refuse to disclose any of that information, and they still show interest in you. Which you do by refusing to date them and converse about those topics with them until you already have a deep mutual connection.



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14 Jun 2017, 2:04 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Either way my affection for my boyfriend is not related to how well he's doing...and as rare as that may be I certainly cannot be the only female like that, who doesn't let lack of material things or financial struggles cause a rift in the relationship.


No, you aren't. I know a few other like that.



The_Face_of_Boo
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14 Jun 2017, 2:22 pm

rdos wrote:
Closet Genious wrote:
It is based upon both my general experience in life and thorough observation of people, but also spending thousands of hours reading philosophy and psychology books and deep introspection.


All you can read in current psychology books is about how NTs operate. I don't think philosophy has the answer either. Experience through observation (or even better, participation) is the only way.

Closet Genious wrote:
I guess you're trying to make the point that my experience would be different dating an aspie. I have not dated a woman on the spectrum, but based on my observations of the women on this forum atleast, I'd say that most of the same mechanisms are at work when it comes to mate selection and gender dynamics.


You shouldn't "date" aspies. That will setup things in the NT way. You need to do natural ND courtship if you want to experience unconditional love with NDs, otherwise, they will just play their cultural roles, all which were defined by NTs.

Closet Genious wrote:
So in my estimation, the difference between NT women and aspies in this regard is small, at best.


In my experience, it is HUGE. :-)

Closet Genious wrote:
I appreciate your response, but I cannot go back to being naive. I've already felt the sudden decrease in affection from a partner when I lost my job, and the sudden attention from women who used to reject me, when I started doing really well. Women's love and affection is always in relation to how well you are doing CURRENTLY, and thus love is not unconditional at all. I am not angry about it, I can't change it anyway. But I just find it exhausting, stressful and not worth it at all.


Women that show different affection based on your job or success are not relationship material. They typically can be detected if you refuse to disclose any of that information, and they still show interest in you. Which you do by refusing to date them and converse about those topics with them until you already have a deep mutual connection.



rdos, sometimes you do sound very wise.

Your last paragraph is a wise advice.



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14 Jun 2017, 2:23 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:


You, both of you, are generalizing about women and promoting the false stereotype that they're more manipulative than men.

Who is generalizing now? :roll:


Yes trying to discuss the generalizations, as for the manipulating I think historically women in a lot of cultures have had to rely more on brains than strength...thus have probably developed more manipulation skills than males who have historically relayed more on strength. Or watch/read some Game of Thrones, the female characters do more manipulating of situations than fighting, whearas the males tend to rely more on fighting and strength. Of course that doesn't describe every character but it is certainly a general rule. There are male characters that don't do much fighting and female characters that do. I know its not 'historical' more fantasy but the author who wrote the books has created very convincing characters that seem to reflect how people really are.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 14 Jun 2017, 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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14 Jun 2017, 2:34 pm

Game of Thrones is a fictional story; and its female characters are fictional.

And you're starting talking evo psychology jargon. In other term, you are theorizing that women have evolved to be better natural manipulators - yet there's no evidence on that.
The "manipulating nature of female character" is an old preconceived idea originated from Adam and Eve and other old biblical legends; and it exists in the 3 abrahamic relgions.

I mean many male historical figures were great manipulators; and of the masses too.
Hitler and Napoleaon were great crow manipulators for example and have no female parrallels in that.



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14 Jun 2017, 2:53 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Game of Thrones is a fictional story; and its female characters are fictional.

And you're starting talking evo psychology jargon. In other term, you are theorizing that women have evolved to be better natural manipulators - yet there's no evidence on that.
The "manipulating nature of female character" is an old preconceived idea originated from Adam and Eve and other old biblical legends; and it exists in the 3 abrahamic relgions.

I mean many male historical figures were great manipulators; and of the masses too.
Hitler and Napoleaon were great crow manipulators for example and have no female parrallels in that.


Yes I pointed out it was fictional in my post, either way it certainly does reflect actual people in a sense, I am sure there are historical books/movies that would also show simular behaviors in people.

Also it has simply been my observation that at least in social situations women tend to be better at manipulating the situation, whether positively or negatively I am not very good at it being I suck at social interaction to begin with but yes it seems largely to be the case. I think the theory I've come up with makes more sense than the biblical/abrahamic version which goes further to imply women cannot be trusted in any way shape or form and then encourages some pretty ridiculous rules for them. For instance in the bible I believe there is something about women having to let their husband rule over them, gross.

And I'd think it would be fairly obvious I don't take typical traits to represent everyone, so it is not surprising there have been very good male manipulators as well. There are also women who are stronger than a lot of males and would probably beat them in a fight.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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14 Jun 2017, 3:07 pm

Oh - maybe it is the way women in your culture/ city / village are socially conditioned to be like that.

My current partner is not like; I never sensed any manipulative nature from her.

I think you are biased against women, Sweetleaf; due to your experiences with some women.

This is not the first time you show bitterness toward women; you talked generalization about manipulation in women in other threads before.



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14 Jun 2017, 7:43 pm

lol you have a partner?


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15 Jun 2017, 5:49 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Closet Genious wrote:
rdos wrote:
Closet Genious wrote:
The primary reason is that relationships never made me truly happy anways. I've been in 3 relationships and 2 of them were actually pretty good matches for me I'd say, so I don't think it's because I didn't find good enough women, it's just how I feel about relationships. I value my own freedom and self expression too much to sacrifice it.


I think that if you lost your freedom or self-expression in your past relationships, then they were not good matches after all. Maybe good matches based on interests, but not good matches in areas that count.

Closet Genious wrote:
The rest comes down to the general gender dynamic, and how mate selection works, which I find offensive and dehumanizing.


Now you are simply saying that you dislike NT mate selection, and then assume that's all there is to it. Faulty assumption. NT mate selection is not a human universal. There are people that don't work that way, and that will play without those.

Closet Genious wrote:
I'll boil it down to: Love is not unconditional, or even remotely close to being it.


Which is a faulty conclusion based on faulty assumptions.


It is based upon both my general experience in life and thorough observation of people, but also spending thousands of hours reading philosophy and psychology books and deep introspection.

I guess you're trying to make the point that my experience would be different dating an aspie. I have not dated a woman on the spectrum, but based on my observations of the women on this forum atleast, I'd say that most of the same mechanisms are at work when it comes to mate selection and gender dynamics. So in my estimation, the difference between NT women and aspies in this regard is small, at best.

I appreciate your response, but I cannot go back to being naive. I've already felt the sudden decrease in affection from a partner when I lost my job, and the sudden attention from women who used to reject me, when I started doing really well. Women's love and affection is always in relation to how well you are doing CURRENTLY, and thus love is not unconditional at all. I am not angry about it, I can't change it anyway. But I just find it exhausting, stressful and not worth it at all.


Well I don't know about always I don't love my boyfriend any less or have less affection for him when he isn't doing that well. We had a concerning period for a bit where he had quit his job and had to find something new but he didn't get less affection from me, at one point we even considered if he didn't find something in time we'd have to go stay with his parents till we could manage to do better financially. And when I first met him he was sleeping on the floor of an apartment living room...I slept there with him plenty of times before he ever was able to afford a bed.

I have always kind of wanted a relationship without having some of the issues I have observed among some couples such as the woman being too materialistic and the guy willing to do anything for her regardless of how crappy she treats him and things like that. Or being in a relationship with someone with a different lifestyle so it ends up one person wants to drink for instance and the other person constantly disapproves and hassles them about it. I didn't want to be like that, so I am not.

But to each their own if you're happier on your own, certainly does give you more freedom to just do what you want and not have to consider another person. Either way my affection for my boyfriend is not related to how well he's doing...and as rare as that may be I certainly cannot be the only female like that, who doesn't let lack of material things or financial struggles cause a rift in the relationship. The only reason finances matter to either of us at all is so we can live together with a roof over our head, well and we both have fantasized about winning the lottery but who hasn't.


I think it's very rare for a woman to think like you do Sweetleaf, and I mean that as a compliment.

I've had experiences with women though, where they pretended to have the values they knew I would be attracted to. And then suddenly the facade crackles, and it turns out they are as shallow as a puddle. I think some women treat dating like a game, where all they want to do is to "win", no matter how fake they need to be to get there.

The experiences I've had have made me extremely skeptical of women. Unfortunately, I think even if I met a woman who genuinely shared the same values as me, I would be to skeptical to even believe it.



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15 Jun 2017, 6:36 am

Btw, the girl of the chat screenshot in the locked thread has just told me yesterday that she broke up with her date who was talking about in that same chat.

What was her reason? It wasn't because he makes less than she expects (less than $10K).

But because she "felt" that he may be treating her like a prostitute; she realized that the chalet where he was taking her is in a known red district area; and that made her to feel uncomfortable, according to what she told me.

I am not surprised though, no sane good guy would remain with a such greedy person unless he sees her as a purchasable sex object.

Gold diggers will always attract "sex buyers" type of guys.