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MSBKyle
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23 Jun 2017, 8:49 pm

For the regrets that I do have, they have all resulted in something I have done rather than something I didn't do. I would rather make a decision not to do something and miss out on something good than make a decision and have it be a bad one. How can you miss out on something you don't know? When you make a decision on something, how do you know it is going to be a good one and you won't regret it later? My goal is to avoid all the bad as much as possible even if it means missing out on something good. That is just me. I would rather not have been born and missed out on all the good things that have happened to me throughout my life to avoid all the bad things that I have experienced throughout my life. I often hear that not having children is selfish. How is not having children selfish when they don't exist? What can someone who doesn't exist be missing out on? I think having kids is more selfish. When you have kids, even if they have a good life, they will still experience pain at least occasionally. Someone who doesn't exist won't ever have to feel any pain at all. It is the same with making the decision not to do something. How can you regret or miss out on something that you didn't do or experience?



LoveNotHate
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24 Jun 2017, 12:50 am

Terrible decisions haunt you.

"An IT worker threw out a computer hard drive without realizing it contained $7.5 million worth of the digital currency Bitcoin".
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/it-wo ... 2D11669738

Today that "trash" is valued at around $20 Million dollars.

"It is soul destroying to be honest,” Howells told NBC News



shlaifu
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24 Jun 2017, 7:15 pm

Dear OP, sadly, there is a conceptual error in your reasoning, and that is the idea that not doing a certain thing equals to doing nothing, and that this nothing therefore has no consequences.
But you're never only not doing something, you're always also doing something else.

Say, you decide to not go on holiday to avoid the hassle, falling ill in a foreign country and getting into a heated argument with a rickshaw driver over a hundred rupees.
It also means you are deciding for staying home, reading books, feeling bored, pondering the meaning of existence and so on, developing depression and needing therapy.
Either way, you end up needing medical help.

You are always choosing something.
The question is if your decision is guided by something you want, are interested in and aspire to, or by something you want to avoid.

I agree on it being selfish to have kids, with some much imperfection everywhere.
There are arguments to be made for avoiding certain things one dislikes, which are harmful and so on.
But I guess a case to case approach seems way more adequate than any categorical thinking.


Do it, or don't.
Either way, you'll regret it.
(Soren kierkegard, either - or)


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14 Jul 2017, 7:17 pm

By wondering what might have been.


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AngelRho
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22 Jul 2017, 8:51 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
By wondering what might have been.

Bingo. By doing something you regret, at least now you KNOW, and there was always at least a chance that things would turn out right.

By NOT doing something, you not only have to wonder "what if," but you have to live with the decision YOU made to forever close the door on something.

It's kinda like a woman who swears she never wants children. The closer she gets to 40, the biological alarm clock is going off so loud it wakes the neighbors. Maybe it's selfish. Maybe you'd be a terrible mom. Maybe you're bringing children into a world of misery they don't deserve. But MAYBE these children are different because they're YOURS. Maybe there's still some hope left.

No kids, no hope. That window closes and you never even TRIED. So you wait around for your turn while everyone you knew dies--and you've got nothing to show for your life.

I'm just using that as an example, one possible scenario. I'm aware many women live fulfilled lives without kids and all that. But that's just illustrating the kind of thinking you expose yourself to by avoiding manageable and acceptable risks. Maybe you'd regret it. Maybe you wouldn't. But you'll never know.

By going for it and failing, at least you can say you tried and grew from the experience.



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27 Jul 2017, 9:56 pm

yeah i am the same way.

there are a lot of things i regret doing.

there are not many things i did not do, that i should have done.

one wrong move, and the effects are unlimited and could last for a long time.

but if something good happens it's like whooptie do. and then it's over.

______________________________________________________________________

not having children.

how could that be "selfish"?

the world contains plenty of unwanted children already. it is not necessary to add a couple more.

overpopulation problem

besides even if you have children you are wasting a lot of time money and energy on someone that is more or less a smaller replica of yourself.

if that ain't "selfish" then i do not know what is.

seriously though whether you have children must be your choice.

this is not something you can let society or peers pressure you into doing.

yeah i am 34. no children. no plans for children either.

what's the point?

on FaceBook though plenty of former classmates claim to have children. and some of their children are already in middle or high school.

and sometimes emotionally i feel like i am still in middle school.

although sometimes i feel like i am so tired i must be old.



AngelRho
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28 Jul 2017, 12:04 am

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
yeah i am the same way.

there are a lot of things i regret doing.

there are not many things i did not do, that i should have done.

one wrong move, and the effects are unlimited and could last for a long time.

but if something good happens it's like whooptie do. and then it's over.

______________________________________________________________________

not having children.

how could that be "selfish"?

the world contains plenty of unwanted children already. it is not necessary to add a couple more.

overpopulation problem

besides even if you have children you are wasting a lot of time money and energy on someone that is more or less a smaller replica of yourself.

if that ain't "selfish" then i do not know what is.

seriously though whether you have children must be your choice.

this is not something you can let society or peers pressure you into doing.

yeah i am 34. no children. no plans for children either.

what's the point?

on FaceBook though plenty of former classmates claim to have children. and some of their children are already in middle or high school.

and sometimes emotionally i feel like i am still in middle school.

although sometimes i feel like i am so tired i must be old.

No, that was the point I was making. Having children IS a selfish act often viewed just as you described. You swear you'll never have children, then you live your life "not being selfish" until one day it hits you like a ton of bricks: you haven't experienced motherhood and your time is almost up...and now you're forcing your partner into something he never signed up for, plus everything you mentioned. Selfish.

But since you mentioned it, the opposite is just as bad. You deprive someone of a husband or a wife who'd be perfect for them. You deprive the world of people who can carry your ideals and uniqueness forward across the generations and make the world even better. Might even have been a world leader who achieves peace--or maybe you grand-/great grandchildren. And all because YOU wanted your freedom or because YOU thought it would be unfair to them. That's selfish, too.

I'm not really up for debating it, but I'm convinced ALL human motivations are inherently and fundamentally selfish. It's inescapable. What saves us is a desire to be a part of making someone happy or improving quality of life somehow. That makes us feel special. If it didn't we'd probably be extinct by now.



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28 Jul 2017, 5:29 am

AngelRho wrote:
I'm not really up for debating it, but I'm convinced ALL human motivations are inherently and fundamentally selfish. It's inescapable.

Yeah. Like when the boss blows hot and cold. One minute he's mad and the next minute he's being nice because he's trying to apply what he learned in his Dale Carnegie management course.


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kraftiekortie
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28 Jul 2017, 5:37 am

I don't find that to be the case--that human motivations are, invariably, selfish.



RetroGamer87
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28 Jul 2017, 5:40 am

I don't false people for being selfish - within reason. To some extent I expect people to act in their own self-interest.


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AngelRho
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28 Jul 2017, 6:43 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I'm not really up for debating it, but I'm convinced ALL human motivations are inherently and fundamentally selfish. It's inescapable.

Yeah. Like when the boss blows hot and cold. One minute he's mad and the next minute he's being nice because he's trying to apply what he learned in his Dale Carnegie management course.

Haha! Exactly. That happens because the boss is an @$$hole. You can't "try to apply it." Either you are authentic and sincere about caring for others or you're not. Carnegie's management style is for people who genuinely want influence and power and are willing to examine themselves and make positive change.

The Bible, for instance, refers to denying yourself and following Jesus. You can't accumulate power and influence over people when you possess no vested interest in them. You have to put everyone else ahead of yourself first before you can get anywhere. The @$$hole boss lacks the ability to do that. Jesus, on the other hand, was willing to die for it.

Good people get fired quickly under those guys. The organization suffers and stagnates, too, because management refuses to invest in diversity and innovation and won't help new talent. I say good riddance.



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28 Jul 2017, 7:17 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't find that to be the case--that human motivations are, invariably, selfish.

Kraftie, you and I do our best to be nice to others and treat people with respect, and I think of all people on WP when it comes to character you rank right at the top. You're certainly a better man than me.

However, no motivation is entirely selfless. At the root of all desires is a singular drive that's entirely personal. Maybe you enjoy seeing people smile and laugh when you do something nice or tell a joke. You might buy someone a meal because you'd want the same if you had no money, or it just makes you feel good to provide for another person's needs. There might be someone or something that matters more to you than life itself that you'd willingly die for--which, if you didn't value it, you wouldn't put so much on the line.

There are "nice guys" who hold the belief that if you're nice to people and follow the rules, you'll get everything you want. They lack the desire to put others before themselves and cry because life doesn't grant them the benefits they feel entitled to for being nice to people. They end up being @$$holes.

People we think of being nice guys and give our admiration and respect are those who consistently display positive character traits and appear to act selflessly. They are in the habit of putting everyone else first. It's not the deeds that make them evil. It's the personal desire to do that for their own reasons. Ultimately, all reasons are your own.

Hope for humanity begins when personal pleasure is derived from the well-being of others. Reciprocity works because the good you do for others will ultimately come back to you because people like what you do for them. Free lunch makes people feel uncomfortable, like they're in debt and thus not free. They'll buy you off if they can by doing you a favor. If not and they like what you do for them, they'll meet your needs to keep you coming back.



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28 Jul 2017, 8:21 am

I don't really disagree with what you said.

But it's better to be productive in your selfishness than be entirely selfish in it.

Don't let "selfish intent" deter you from doing good deeds.



AngelRho
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28 Jul 2017, 1:12 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I don't really disagree with what you said.

But it's better to be productive in your selfishness than be entirely selfish in it.

Don't let "selfish intent" deter you from doing good deeds.

It's a little thing called love.



shortfatbalduglyman
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28 Jul 2017, 8:28 pm

No, that was the point I was making. Having children IS a selfish act often viewed just as you described. You swear you'll never have children, then you live your life "not being selfish" until one day it hits you like a ton of bricks: you haven't experienced motherhood and your time is almost up...and now you're forcing your partner into something he never signed up for, plus everything you mentioned. Selfish.

But since you mentioned it, the opposite is just as bad. You deprive someone of a husband or a wife who'd be perfect for them. You deprive the world of people who can carry your ideals and uniqueness forward across the generations and make the world even better. Might even have been a world leader who achieves peace--or maybe you grand-/great grandchildren. And all because YOU wanted your freedom or because YOU thought it would be unfair to them. That's selfish, too.

I'm not really up for debating it, but I'm convinced ALL human motivations are inherently and fundamentally selfish. It's inescapable. What saves us is a desire to be a part of making someone happy or improving quality of life somehow. That makes us feel special. If it didn't we'd probably be extinct by now.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

granted, your children might become world leaders and achieve peace. however, everyone's child might become a world leader and achieve peace. and not many have succeeded at doing so. besides, your children might also become convicted murderers. unless you are psychic you do not know what your children will become.

if you have enough time, energy, money and emotional resilience to have children, you can donate those resources to the homeless children in other countries. surely they would appreciate it.

selfishness can't be measured quantiatively.

when i was in high school, i told my precious lil "mom" that i was going to take the bus home after a tennis match. she had the nerve to tell me that i was "selfish."

later my precious lil "mom" had the nerve to tell me that :| autistic :mrgreen: means "selfish".

she was so judgmental. but almost everyone i have ever interacted with makes nearly constant judgments.

it ain't possible, practical, or necessary to put an equal amount of energy on every living thing in the world. especially since some humans live in other countries. and many humans would rather not have you interact with them. that includes seemingly favorable (for them) interactions.

quite frankly, though, i get the impression that it is really easy for NTs to misinterpret someone with AS as "selfish". or at least grossly overestimate how "selfish" the AS person is.

maybe it takes more energy for someone with AS to imagine the perspective of an NT, than it takes for an NT to imagine the perspective of another NT.

and someone with AS is wrong about the NT's perspective, more often than an NT is wrong about another NT's perspective.

and sometimes the punishment for being wrong, is grossly disproportionate. double standards.

while NTs just tend to assume everyone is NT just b/c almost everyone is NT.

some extroverts make me wanna puke.



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28 Jul 2017, 9:46 pm

shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
No, that was the point I was making. Having children IS a selfish act often viewed just as you described. You swear you'll never have children, then you live your life "not being selfish" until one day it hits you like a ton of bricks: you haven't experienced motherhood and your time is almost up...and now you're forcing your partner into something he never signed up for, plus everything you mentioned. Selfish.

But since you mentioned it, the opposite is just as bad. You deprive someone of a husband or a wife who'd be perfect for them. You deprive the world of people who can carry your ideals and uniqueness forward across the generations and make the world even better. Might even have been a world leader who achieves peace--or maybe you grand-/great grandchildren. And all because YOU wanted your freedom or because YOU thought it would be unfair to them. That's selfish, too.

I'm not really up for debating it, but I'm convinced ALL human motivations are inherently and fundamentally selfish. It's inescapable. What saves us is a desire to be a part of making someone happy or improving quality of life somehow. That makes us feel special. If it didn't we'd probably be extinct by now.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

granted, your children might become world leaders and achieve peace. however, everyone's child might become a world leader and achieve peace. and not many have succeeded at doing so. besides, your children might also become convicted murderers. unless you are psychic you do not know what your children will become.

if you have enough time, energy, money and emotional resilience to have children, you can donate those resources to the homeless children in other countries. surely they would appreciate it.

selfishness can't be measured quantiatively.

when i was in high school, i told my precious lil "mom" that i was going to take the bus home after a tennis match. she had the nerve to tell me that i was "selfish."

later my precious lil "mom" had the nerve to tell me that :| autistic :mrgreen: means "selfish".

she was so judgmental. but almost everyone i have ever interacted with makes nearly constant judgments.

it ain't possible, practical, or necessary to put an equal amount of energy on every living thing in the world. especially since some humans live in other countries. and many humans would rather not have you interact with them. that includes seemingly favorable (for them) interactions.

quite frankly, though, i get the impression that it is really easy for NTs to misinterpret someone with AS as "selfish". or at least grossly overestimate how "selfish" the AS person is.

maybe it takes more energy for someone with AS to imagine the perspective of an NT, than it takes for an NT to imagine the perspective of another NT.

and someone with AS is wrong about the NT's perspective, more often than an NT is wrong about another NT's perspective.

and sometimes the punishment for being wrong, is grossly disproportionate. double standards.

while NTs just tend to assume everyone is NT just b/c almost everyone is NT.

some extroverts make me wanna puke.

We are all selfish. My working theory is NT's have an easier time making the connection between the well-being of others and their own. With autism, there's no immediacy, no observable "why." If someone were to help an autistic understand how people are "out there," we tend to be more outgoing and take more initiative. But the way it works in practical terms is it takes too much time for good behavior to "pay off," especially when one confuses reciprocity with entitlement. I've always been super nice to people and could never understand why I was never treated with respect and decency. And after a while not seeing any results, I got disgusted with being nice. For me, it became more of a religious obligation--I want to do what God wants, and what others do to me is irrelevant. Over time I began to view the Golden Rule differently. Jesus said, "If you who are evil know to do good for your children, how much more will your Father in heaven do for those who ask? Therefore, do for others as you would have them do for you." Not good people. EVIL people. Selfish people. And I came to understand power and influence over people depends on how well one exploits the evil nature of other people. Appeal to selfishness, and people will see to your well-being. Simple as that.

You're selfish if you want kids, selfish if you don't. "MIGHT be a serial killer"? I mean, who are we to decide that? Irrelevant, anyway, because both motives are evil at their core.

Since there's no "good" answer, there's no relative shame for one decision over the other. All you can really do is try to understand and make peace with the decision you make.

By NOT having kids while the window is open, you deny yourself knowledge of the outcome. Whereas if you have children and things turn out badly, you at least live with the guilt of failure having tried. Things at least COULD have gone a different direction, but you had to take a chance. I can't answer for anyone else, but that is a guilt I could live with.

It's an interesting question, though.