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AngelRho
Veteran
Joined: 4 Jan 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,366
Location: The Landmass between N.O. and Mobile
28 Jul 2017, 9:46 pm
shortfatbalduglyman wrote:
No, that was the point I was making. Having children IS a selfish act often viewed just as you described. You swear you'll never have children, then you live your life "not being selfish" until one day it hits you like a ton of bricks: you haven't experienced motherhood and your time is almost up...and now you're forcing your partner into something he never signed up for, plus everything you mentioned. Selfish.
But since you mentioned it, the opposite is just as bad. You deprive someone of a husband or a wife who'd be perfect for them. You deprive the world of people who can carry your ideals and uniqueness forward across the generations and make the world even better. Might even have been a world leader who achieves peace--or maybe you grand-/great grandchildren. And all because YOU wanted your freedom or because YOU thought it would be unfair to them. That's selfish, too.
I'm not really up for debating it, but I'm convinced ALL human motivations are inherently and fundamentally selfish. It's inescapable. What saves us is a desire to be a part of making someone happy or improving quality of life somehow. That makes us feel special. If it didn't we'd probably be extinct by now.
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granted, your children might become world leaders and achieve peace. however, everyone's child might become a world leader and achieve peace. and not many have succeeded at doing so. besides, your children might also become convicted murderers. unless you are psychic you do not know what your children will become.
if you have enough time, energy, money and emotional resilience to have children, you can donate those resources to the homeless children in other countries. surely they would appreciate it.
selfishness can't be measured quantiatively.
when i was in high school, i told my precious lil "mom" that i was going to take the bus home after a tennis match. she had the nerve to tell me that i was "selfish."
later my precious lil "mom" had the nerve to tell me that
autistic 
means "selfish".
she was so judgmental. but almost everyone i have ever interacted with makes nearly constant judgments.
it ain't possible, practical, or necessary to put an equal amount of energy on every living thing in the world. especially since some humans live in other countries. and many humans would rather not have you interact with them. that includes seemingly favorable (for them) interactions.
quite frankly, though, i get the impression that it is really easy for NTs to misinterpret someone with AS as "selfish". or at least grossly overestimate how "selfish" the AS person is.
maybe it takes more energy for someone with AS to imagine the perspective of an NT, than it takes for an NT to imagine the perspective of another NT.
and someone with AS is wrong about the NT's perspective, more often than an NT is wrong about another NT's perspective.
and sometimes the punishment for being wrong, is grossly disproportionate. double standards.
while NTs just tend to assume everyone is NT just b/c almost everyone is NT.
some extroverts make me wanna puke.
But since you mentioned it, the opposite is just as bad. You deprive someone of a husband or a wife who'd be perfect for them. You deprive the world of people who can carry your ideals and uniqueness forward across the generations and make the world even better. Might even have been a world leader who achieves peace--or maybe you grand-/great grandchildren. And all because YOU wanted your freedom or because YOU thought it would be unfair to them. That's selfish, too.
I'm not really up for debating it, but I'm convinced ALL human motivations are inherently and fundamentally selfish. It's inescapable. What saves us is a desire to be a part of making someone happy or improving quality of life somehow. That makes us feel special. If it didn't we'd probably be extinct by now.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
granted, your children might become world leaders and achieve peace. however, everyone's child might become a world leader and achieve peace. and not many have succeeded at doing so. besides, your children might also become convicted murderers. unless you are psychic you do not know what your children will become.
if you have enough time, energy, money and emotional resilience to have children, you can donate those resources to the homeless children in other countries. surely they would appreciate it.
selfishness can't be measured quantiatively.
when i was in high school, i told my precious lil "mom" that i was going to take the bus home after a tennis match. she had the nerve to tell me that i was "selfish."
later my precious lil "mom" had the nerve to tell me that
autistic means "selfish". she was so judgmental. but almost everyone i have ever interacted with makes nearly constant judgments.
it ain't possible, practical, or necessary to put an equal amount of energy on every living thing in the world. especially since some humans live in other countries. and many humans would rather not have you interact with them. that includes seemingly favorable (for them) interactions.
quite frankly, though, i get the impression that it is really easy for NTs to misinterpret someone with AS as "selfish". or at least grossly overestimate how "selfish" the AS person is.
maybe it takes more energy for someone with AS to imagine the perspective of an NT, than it takes for an NT to imagine the perspective of another NT.
and someone with AS is wrong about the NT's perspective, more often than an NT is wrong about another NT's perspective.
and sometimes the punishment for being wrong, is grossly disproportionate. double standards.
while NTs just tend to assume everyone is NT just b/c almost everyone is NT.
some extroverts make me wanna puke.
We are all selfish. My working theory is NT's have an easier time making the connection between the well-being of others and their own. With autism, there's no immediacy, no observable "why." If someone were to help an autistic understand how people are "out there," we tend to be more outgoing and take more initiative. But the way it works in practical terms is it takes too much time for good behavior to "pay off," especially when one confuses reciprocity with entitlement. I've always been super nice to people and could never understand why I was never treated with respect and decency. And after a while not seeing any results, I got disgusted with being nice. For me, it became more of a religious obligation--I want to do what God wants, and what others do to me is irrelevant. Over time I began to view the Golden Rule differently. Jesus said, "If you who are evil know to do good for your children, how much more will your Father in heaven do for those who ask? Therefore, do for others as you would have them do for you." Not good people. EVIL people. Selfish people. And I came to understand power and influence over people depends on how well one exploits the evil nature of other people. Appeal to selfishness, and people will see to your well-being. Simple as that.
You're selfish if you want kids, selfish if you don't. "MIGHT be a serial killer"? I mean, who are we to decide that? Irrelevant, anyway, because both motives are evil at their core.
Since there's no "good" answer, there's no relative shame for one decision over the other. All you can really do is try to understand and make peace with the decision you make.
By NOT having kids while the window is open, you deny yourself knowledge of the outcome. Whereas if you have children and things turn out badly, you at least live with the guilt of failure having tried. Things at least COULD have gone a different direction, but you had to take a chance. I can't answer for anyone else, but that is a guilt I could live with.
It's an interesting question, though.
