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EzraS
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06 Jul 2017, 8:31 am

cyberdad wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Right, there's an icky factor. That's why I'm not bothered by people finding gay relationships icky. How they express that feeling is another matter.

I think Kraichgauer mean't dating your cousin is "icky"


Yes I know. To him and most cousins dating each other is icky. Likewise to many people two men dating each other is icky. I don't have a problem accepting that. Just as long as they don't outright victimize me.



kraftiekortie
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06 Jul 2017, 9:10 am

To be honest, if you started dating your cousin, Ezra, I probably would find it sort of "icky."

But that's just my feeling. Especially if he's your first cousin.

It's actually legal in most, if not all, states in the United States, for first cousins to marry.

Franklin Roosevelt married his fifth cousin, Eleanor. Eleanor was the niece of Theodore Roosevelt. Nobody raised any objections in those days.

People used to marry second and third cousins all the time. It was seen as being "questionable" by some--but not severely so.

If I was your close friend, I'd just have to get used to it. There's no personal harm in that sort of relationship.

I had a crush once, when I was 10, on a 14 year old girl who was some kind of cousin. I don't know what sort of cousin, though. We were swinging on a two-person string together, and I developed that "certain feeling."



EzraS
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06 Jul 2017, 11:06 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
To be honest, if you started dating your cousin, Ezra, I probably would find it sort of "icky."

But that's just my feeling. Especially if he's your first cousin.

It's actually legal in most, if not all, states in the United States, for first cousins to marry.

Franklin Roosevelt married his fifth cousin, Eleanor. Eleanor was the niece of Theodore Roosevelt. Nobody raised any objections in those days.

People used to marry second and third cousins all the time. It was seen as being "questionable" by some--but not severely so.

If I was your close friend, I'd just have to get used to it. There's no personal harm in that sort of relationship.

I had a crush once, when I was 10, on a 14 year old girl who was some kind of cousin. I don't know what sort of cousin, though. We were swinging on a two-person string together, and I developed that "certain feeling."


Well we go out and get burgers or whatever together, can that be considered dating? :P And our parents say when we argue we are like an old married couple haha. We are the same age within four months and really almost more like fraternal twins. Our moms actually are twins.

But I was just trying to make a point or whatever as far as feeling like something was icky. I figured most would feel that way about the idea. And if not then I would have escalated it to siblings. Not that I'm trying to compare that to a gay relationship. But just that I can understand how some would find a gay relationship icky.

I didn't know first cousin marriages were legal in most states. I think 5th cousins is so far removed it doesn't matter.



kraftiekortie
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06 Jul 2017, 12:20 pm

Correction:

20 out of the 50 states allow first-cousin marriage. About five others allow it under certain circumstances.

Much of the population of the US, though, live in states where first-cousin marriage is allowed.

In 43 out of the 50 states, including Washington, but not Nevada, sexual relations are allowed between first cousins.

It is an absolute criminal offense in five states, including Nevada. It's not a criminal offense in Washington.

In three other states, it's a criminal offense under certain conditions.

First-cousin, once removed marriage is allowed in 46 states.



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 06 Jul 2017, 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

envirozentinel
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06 Jul 2017, 12:31 pm

^^ Quite complicated!


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06 Jul 2017, 1:08 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
To be honest, if you started dating your cousin, Ezra, I probably would find it sort of "icky."

But that's just my feeling. Especially if he's your first cousin.

It's actually legal in most, if not all, states in the United States, for first cousins to marry.

Franklin Roosevelt married his fifth cousin, Eleanor. Eleanor was the niece of Theodore Roosevelt. Nobody raised any objections in those days.

People used to marry second and third cousins all the time. It was seen as being "questionable" by some--but not severely so.

If I was your close friend, I'd just have to get used to it. There's no personal harm in that sort of relationship.

I had a crush once, when I was 10, on a 14 year old girl who was some kind of cousin. I don't know what sort of cousin, though. We were swinging on a two-person string together, and I developed that "certain feeling."


Look back far enough in everyone's family tree, and you'll doubtlessly find cousins marrying cousins.


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06 Jul 2017, 1:15 pm

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You know, Bill, South Africa (where I stay) also had sick laws on the statute books which forbade people from marrying, or even having sex, across the colour bar and this was one of numerous laws and regulations they tried to justify using scripture too. They were all repealed in the early 90s which was a time of great change for the better - the destruction of the Berlin Wall also took place about that time, and the transition of Russia to a democracy and the creation of numerous new countries.

We now have the most liberated constitution in Africa and people are pretty free to be who they want to be. The country is far from perfect right now due to corruption and many instances of abuse against women and children, but generally life is better. For these things happened in the long ago days, but such instances were swept under the carpet rather than out in the open.

I know an instance of an Afrikaans woman who was abused by an uncle as a little girl, which led to her becoming an alcoholic in later years. Accusing pillars of the Church in Afrikaner society at that time would have been almost unthinkable. They would have blamed the little girl for telling tales - I kid you not!


I think that had been very common to disbelieve the child victim in child abuse cases in the past, regardless of the nationality or geographic location. That's why perpetrators were able to get away with it for so long.
And it wasn't just sexual abuse, but also physical. My dad, when he was growing up in a rural community, had had a clearly mentally ill teacher who'd come up behind him while he was studying at his desk, and hit him across the back of the head, and shout, "You'll hang, boy! You'll hang!" After telling his parents, my grandfather complained to the school board - - who chose to side with the teacher. Finally, she made the mistake of harassing the son of a school board member, after which she was fired.


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Kraichgauer
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06 Jul 2017, 1:19 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
As you've had a boyfriend before, why aren't you offended by Lintar? After all, he has you condemned to Hell, already.


Wasn't he just saying what the bible says? Are you offended by the bible?


No, he's using the Bible to justify his own disgust for gays.


Actually, I didn't mention the Bible, but if you want me to I can. For example:

Leviticus 18:22 - "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

There are many other such passages that clearly show on which side of the 'debate' the authors of the Bible would be if they were around today. Many millions of people around the world take the Bible seriously, and they far outnumber self-proclaimed atheists and secularists, and yet... and yet all we ever hear in the mainstream media are the views of this tiny minority. Why is that?


As a Lutheran, I believe in the theology of the two kingdoms - that is, God's kingdom which exists in the hearts of all true believers, and the secular kingdom, which is earthly government. Both are under God's rule, and must be respected. If Christians feel the secular kingdom is completely out of touch with God's kingdom, they have the right to fight (as did Lutheran ministers like Dietrich Bonhoeffer who opposed Hitler), but they have to accept the penalty for that choice.


I might start a seperate thread about this in ppr. But in the meantime I'm wondering, what if my cousin and I decided to become boyfriends? Lets say when we are both 18 we decide to enter into common law marrage? Or what if we decide to become legally married?


Cousin-to-cousin marriages are not very common like they used to be, as incest in straight couples has been known to create health issues, considering the narrowed gene pool. That said, no natural offspring is possible in a gay relationship. So I suppose I wouldn't be that opposed to it, though the idea of close relatives having sex in this day and age is icky.


Right, there's an icky factor. That's why I'm not bothered by people finding gay relationships icky. How they express that feeling is another matter.


No one says they're not entitled to their opinion, but they don't have the right to take away rights enjoyed by everyone else, just for the "icky" factor. Ugly, denigrating language with the intent to roll back said rights is a first step to that end.


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envirozentinel
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06 Jul 2017, 1:22 pm

Yes, one thing I can't stand is abuse of a position of authority. Such as found among certain teachers, cops and others who throw their weight around.

Like the headmistress in Matilda : "Because I'm big and you're small. Because I'm right and you're wrong..."


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