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Who can and should Trump pardon?
He can and should pardon everyone including himself 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
He can and should pardon everyone except himself 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
He can't pardon himself 25%  25%  [ 4 ]
He shouldn't pardon anyone in this matter 44%  44%  [ 7 ]
If he does issue pardons, commence with impeachment 19%  19%  [ 3 ]
Other, please elaborate 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 16

EzraS
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23 Jul 2017, 9:20 am

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Tollorin
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23 Jul 2017, 1:11 pm

Darmok wrote:
Quote:
But if he's not guilty of anything, what has he to be afraid of?

Real fascism is always just below the surface of the Left.


According to you the writer of the Harry Potter books is a fascist then; which defeat the purpose for why you posted this video.


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Kraichgauer
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23 Jul 2017, 1:27 pm

Darmok wrote:
Quote:
But if he's not guilty of anything, what has he to be afraid of?

Real fascism is always just below the surface of the Left.



And yet you guys on the right keep telling us on the left that we're a bunch of commies. Which is it? :P
By the way, fascism is a creature of the right.


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Kraichgauer
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23 Jul 2017, 1:31 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Some people have become very skeptical of what certain media outlets have to say about Trump. Especially when it's presented as a tip from an anonymous source. More often than not it's nonsense.


Supposing he does pardon himself, what would your opinion be?


My opinion would be based on what the circumstances were.

I can understand him asking a question like that though, since they seem so desperate to dig up or come up with anything they can nail him with.


But if he's not guilty of anything, what has he to be afraid of?


Ask all the people who have been wrongfully convicted for something they weren't guilty of. Especially the ones who had investigators and prosecutors who were determined to pin something on them. I know I'd be nervous if I was being investigated for something I didn't do and seeking legal counsel and finding out what my options were just in case.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... -the-math/


We're not talking about a poor black kid who's unable to afford a lawyer being railroaded, but the most powerful man in the world. Trump is hardly powerless before the forces of law enforcement, and yet you people on the right describe him as if he was.


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BaronHarkonnen85
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23 Jul 2017, 3:32 pm

Article II, Section 2:

Quote:
[H]e shall have the Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.


While he might technically have the power to pardon himself (debatable), it would only apply to criminal conviction after he's removed from office. Nothing I have seen warrants impeachment and removal from office. Presidents have gotten away with all kinds of things that are technically illegal, but none have ever been removed from office.

Only two presidents have been impeached: Bill Clinton and Andrew Johnson. The latter remained in office by one vote.

Also remember that 2/3 of the senate is needed. Something would have to be really bad to get 2/3 of the senate to agree.


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EzraS
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24 Jul 2017, 5:07 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Some people have become very skeptical of what certain media outlets have to say about Trump. Especially when it's presented as a tip from an anonymous source. More often than not it's nonsense.


Supposing he does pardon himself, what would your opinion be?


My opinion would be based on what the circumstances were.

I can understand him asking a question like that though, since they seem so desperate to dig up or come up with anything they can nail him with.


But if he's not guilty of anything, what has he to be afraid of?


Ask all the people who have been wrongfully convicted for something they weren't guilty of. Especially the ones who had investigators and prosecutors who were determined to pin something on them. I know I'd be nervous if I was being investigated for something I didn't do and seeking legal counsel and finding out what my options were just in case.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... -the-math/


We're not talking about a poor black kid who's unable to afford a lawyer being railroaded, but the most powerful man in the world. Trump is hardly powerless before the forces of law enforcement, and yet you people on the right describe him as if he was.


You people on the right, even though I chose Sanders and I'm what they would call a commie and a queer.

Anyways I think most anyone in the type of situation Tump is in, would explore what possible recourse is available even if they're innocent.



Last edited by EzraS on 24 Jul 2017, 5:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

Kraichgauer
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24 Jul 2017, 5:20 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Some people have become very skeptical of what certain media outlets have to say about Trump. Especially when it's presented as a tip from an anonymous source. More often than not it's nonsense.


Supposing he does pardon himself, what would your opinion be?


My opinion would be based on what the circumstances were.

I can understand him asking a question like that though, since they seem so desperate to dig up or come up with anything they can nail him with.


But if he's not guilty of anything, what has he to be afraid of?


Ask all the people who have been wrongfully convicted for something they weren't guilty of. Especially the ones who had investigators and prosecutors who were determined to pin something on them. I know I'd be nervous if I was being investigated for something I didn't do and seeking legal counsel and finding out what my options were just in case.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... -the-math/


We're not talking about a poor black kid who's unable to afford a lawyer being railroaded, but the most powerful man in the world. Trump is hardly powerless before the forces of law enforcement, and yet you people on the right describe him as if he was.


You people on the right, even though I chose Sanders and I'm what they would call a commie.

Most anyone in the type of situation Tump is in, would want to explore what possible recourse is available even if they're innocent.


Even Richard Nixon never entertained the idea of pardoning himself, and he was guiltier than hell.


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EzraS
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24 Jul 2017, 7:05 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Some people have become very skeptical of what certain media outlets have to say about Trump. Especially when it's presented as a tip from an anonymous source. More often than not it's nonsense.


Supposing he does pardon himself, what would your opinion be?


My opinion would be based on what the circumstances were.

I can understand him asking a question like that though, since they seem so desperate to dig up or come up with anything they can nail him with.


But if he's not guilty of anything, what has he to be afraid of?


Ask all the people who have been wrongfully convicted for something they weren't guilty of. Especially the ones who had investigators and prosecutors who were determined to pin something on them. I know I'd be nervous if I was being investigated for something I didn't do and seeking legal counsel and finding out what my options were just in case.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... -the-math/


We're not talking about a poor black kid who's unable to afford a lawyer being railroaded, but the most powerful man in the world. Trump is hardly powerless before the forces of law enforcement, and yet you people on the right describe him as if he was.


You people on the right, even though I chose Sanders and I'm what they would call a commie.

Most anyone in the type of situation Tump is in, would want to explore what possible recourse is available even if they're innocent.


Even Richard Nixon never entertained the idea of pardoning himself, and he was guiltier than hell.


Were people as desperate for Nixon to be guilty of something from day one as they have been for Trump? Were they talking about impeaching Nixon before he even became president? It's really not the same situation at all.

Not to mention all the years Nixon spent as a politician, including four years as vice president and another four years as potus. Yet Trump is supposed to be like Nixon in how he reponds to things.

Also I wonder why it seems Clinton who actually was impeached is never brought up. Is it because Clinton is a democrat and Hillary's husband? Probably.



ASPartOfMe
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24 Jul 2017, 8:24 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Some people have become very skeptical of what certain media outlets have to say about Trump. Especially when it's presented as a tip from an anonymous source. More often than not it's nonsense.


Supposing he does pardon himself, what would your opinion be?


My opinion would be based on what the circumstances were.

I can understand him asking a question like that though, since they seem so desperate to dig up or come up with anything they can nail him with.


But if he's not guilty of anything, what has he to be afraid of?


Ask all the people who have been wrongfully convicted for something they weren't guilty of. Especially the ones who had investigators and prosecutors who were determined to pin something on them. I know I'd be nervous if I was being investigated for something I didn't do and seeking legal counsel and finding out what my options were just in case.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... -the-math/


We're not talking about a poor black kid who's unable to afford a lawyer being railroaded, but the most powerful man in the world. Trump is hardly powerless before the forces of law enforcement, and yet you people on the right describe him as if he was.


You people on the right, even though I chose Sanders and I'm what they would call a commie.

Most anyone in the type of situation Tump is in, would want to explore what possible recourse is available even if they're innocent.


Even Richard Nixon never entertained the idea of pardoning himself, and he was guiltier than hell.


Were people as desperate for Nixon to be guilty of something from day one as they have been for Trump? Were they talking about impeaching Nixon before he even became president? It's really not the same situation at all.

Not to mention all the years Nixon spent as a politician, including four years as vice president and another four years as potus. Yet Trump is supposed to be like Nixon in how he reponds to things.

Also I wonder why it seems Clinton who actually was impeached is never brought up. Is it because Clinton is a democrat and Hillary's husband? Probably.


Unlike Trump Nixon hated social situations and crowds. Nixon did not have close to the self confidence Trump has. Nixon unlike Trump was "book smart". Nixon was an adult.

The entire left did not want to impeach Nixon from day one but a lot of the left hated him personally. Eggs and debris were thrown at his car during his inauguration parade. The mutual loathing between him the mainstream media is similar to Trump's but Trump is more outgoing about it. Nixon let others criticize the press especially his vice president. Nixon's Attorney General famously called the owner of the Washington Post and told her she was going to "get her big fat tit caught in a wringer" if they published a Watergate story. He had the IRS audit hostile media and the FDA review thier licences. Trump is investiging the investigators.


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kraftiekortie
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24 Jul 2017, 9:28 am

I still feel, no matter what argument somebody puts forward, that any person who seeks to "pardon himself" believes he/her self is guilty of something.

Yes, Goebbels said something similar: but this is not relevant to the discussion at hand.

Even Nixon understood about the "inalienable" right of anybody to criticize anything about a person. He knew that a free press was essential in a Democracy. I don't find that Trump feels the same way.

Like I said, Trump is no Nazi---but he's certainly seeking to be a "Big Brother" or some sort of entity like that.



EzraS
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24 Jul 2017, 10:40 am

Okay I concede. Trump is obviously guilty of something. There is no doubt about it whatsoever.



Kraichgauer
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24 Jul 2017, 3:17 pm

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Some people have become very skeptical of what certain media outlets have to say about Trump. Especially when it's presented as a tip from an anonymous source. More often than not it's nonsense.


Supposing he does pardon himself, what would your opinion be?


My opinion would be based on what the circumstances were.

I can understand him asking a question like that though, since they seem so desperate to dig up or come up with anything they can nail him with.


But if he's not guilty of anything, what has he to be afraid of?


Ask all the people who have been wrongfully convicted for something they weren't guilty of. Especially the ones who had investigators and prosecutors who were determined to pin something on them. I know I'd be nervous if I was being investigated for something I didn't do and seeking legal counsel and finding out what my options were just in case.

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com ... -the-math/


We're not talking about a poor black kid who's unable to afford a lawyer being railroaded, but the most powerful man in the world. Trump is hardly powerless before the forces of law enforcement, and yet you people on the right describe him as if he was.


You people on the right, even though I chose Sanders and I'm what they would call a commie.

Most anyone in the type of situation Tump is in, would want to explore what possible recourse is available even if they're innocent.


Even Richard Nixon never entertained the idea of pardoning himself, and he was guiltier than hell.


Were people as desperate for Nixon to be guilty of something from day one as they have been for Trump? Were they talking about impeaching Nixon before he even became president? It's really not the same situation at all.

Not to mention all the years Nixon spent as a politician, including four years as vice president and another four years as potus. Yet Trump is supposed to be like Nixon in how he reponds to things.

Also I wonder why it seems Clinton who actually was impeached is never brought up. Is it because Clinton is a democrat and Hillary's husband? Probably.


I think ASPartOfMe provided an excellent answer.


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kraftiekortie
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24 Jul 2017, 3:21 pm

Would anybody consider the idea of "pardoning one's self" should one be accused of a crime? Especially if that somebody is innocent?

If a leader has the power to "pardon" him/her self, that person can potentially really be "above the law." It's a rather scary thought, actually.

Was King Charles I able to "pardon himself" before he was beheaded?

I am glad we have state, as well as Federal, courts.