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naturalplastic
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20 Oct 2017, 8:39 am

The Anglo Saxons did the raising, and the French aristocrats did the eating! Lol!

American pundit Roy Blount Jr. penned a funny little column about his background. The name "Blount" is a Norman name. And he talked about how "the English oppressed the World, but we Normans oppressed the English. So we are 'the oppressors of the oppressors!'". :lol:



cyberdad
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20 Oct 2017, 9:10 pm

Biscuitman wrote:

Comes from post 1066 life over who farmed the animals (english) and who only dealt with it when served up on a plate (french)


naturalplastic wrote:
The Anglo Saxons did the raising, and the French aristocrats did the eating! Lol!


Yes more interesting ones
fork - French Forque
spoon - Old Engilsh spon
This would mean Anglo-Saxons used spoons for their stews, soups and porridge and the French introduced the etiquette of using a knife and fork

knife - this one is interesting as the word for knife in old English is aex (which is axe). The Anglo-Saxons apparently adopted the word knife from the Vikings who called them knifr - obviously the Anglo-Saxons first experience of the Vikings was a knifr in the back and it's stuck ever since (pardon the pun)



naturalplastic
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20 Oct 2017, 9:22 pm

Don't know, but my guess is that connive is related to the word "knife" in some way.

But those silent K words are interesting.

King Canute. Both "king" and "Canute". King came from anglo saxon "cyning" and has an obvious kinship the modern German "Koning" (both words for 'king'). We still pronounce the K in king. But not other words like 'knife'.

Back then they pronounced the K in know and in 'knowledge'. And in the Scottish dialect of English they talk about something being "beyond my ken". Ken in that sense must be the truncated first part of "know/knowledge". A knife can be 'keen'.



auntblabby
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20 Oct 2017, 9:25 pm

^^^If I had an English teacher like you, I might've ended up in academia. :study:



cyberdad
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20 Oct 2017, 9:27 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
There is a modern movement of folks who wanna banish Latin-French influence from English and use only words of Germanic origin. .

well these people are clearly misinformed about their own heritage

Prior to the arrival of Celtic and German speakers there were populations already living this part of Europe. In modern France and Spain they spoke Basque. The indigenous groups stuck in the north after the ice age probably evolved their own language. The Germanic tribes took over their lands and probably their language/culture but the people maintained their own identity - I think these people are the Frisians. The indigenous population stuck in the island of Britain were never invaded by the Germanic tribes but were swept away by Celtic invaders arriving from Gaul. The Celts couldn't entirely subdue these free spirited people and neither could the Romans. These people were the Picts and they were eventually killed off by the coalition of Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Frisians.

My feeling is the Frisian language (and thus English) retain links to Pictish words and what I would like to see how much of our language is infact neither German, Celtic or Latin. Therein lies the true roots of the English language.



naturalplastic
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21 Oct 2017, 12:44 am

auntblabby wrote:
^^^If I had an English teacher like you, I might've ended up in academia. :study:


Oh. Thank you!

Hey, I just realized that "connive" is the verb form of "knave". A knave is a scoundrel. And thus is a person who connives. Lol!



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21 Oct 2017, 12:49 am

naturalplastic wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
^^^If I had an English teacher like you, I might've ended up in academia. :study:


Oh. Thank you!

Hey, I just realized that "connive" is the verb form of "knave". A knave is a scoundrel. And thus is a person who connives. Lol!

I thought that a k'nivr/conniver was a strongarmed k'nave possibly armed with knifr who would behave scoundrelish towards people, possibly strong-arm robbing them and killing them, or at the very least intimidating them/cheating out of their blood and treasure. I guess the word "connive" which comes down to us through this history, has in its etymology, just such a description. just a thought.



naturalplastic
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21 Oct 2017, 1:02 am

well these people are clearly misinformed about their own heritage

Prior to the arrival of Celtic and German speakers there were populations already living this part of Europe. In modern France and Spain they spoke Basque. The indigenous groups stuck in the north after the ice age probably evolved their own language. The Germanic tribes took over their lands and probably their language/culture but the people maintained their own identity - I think these people are the Frisians. The indigenous population stuck in the island of Britain were never invaded by the Germanic tribes but were swept away by Celtic invaders arriving from Gaul. The Celts couldn't entirely subdue these free spirited people and neither could the Romans. These people were the Picts and they were eventually killed off by the coalition of Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Frisians.
======================================================================

No.
Your narrative is not quite right. And that's not the problem (there are other problems but that isn't one of them) with this modern movement for "Anglish"( this pure Anglo Saxon English they want). It don't see how they are wrongly informed about their heritage. Just wrong headed. In theory you could create an all Anglo Saxon rooted English. Though it would not be the same thing as Old English. But Old English except for a few loan words was all Germanic rooted.

The British Islands were inhabited by the Celtic tribes, and then they were conquered and ruled by the Romans for four hundred years. Then the Romans pulled out, and the Germanic tribes invaded from the east. The Germanic Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians, all booted the celtes out of the eastern parts of Britain, and Became the modern English. And the Celtic tribes of the west became the Welsh, and the other Celtic folks (the Cornish, Irish, Scots). The Celts of then became the Celts of now. And the Germanic tribes of then became the English of now. There were little blending of the Celtic and Anglo Saxon languages. Early on the Picts got absorbed by Celtic invaders from Ireland whom the Romans knew as "the Scoti" (Skoh-shee). The Irish Scoti invaded northern Britain and absorbed the Pics and became the modern Scots of Scotland. The Pics don't figure in the history of English as a language much.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 21 Oct 2017, 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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21 Oct 2017, 1:06 am

auntblabby wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
^^^If I had an English teacher like you, I might've ended up in academia. :study:


Oh. Thank you!

Hey, I just realized that "connive" is the verb form of "knave". A knave is a scoundrel. And thus is a person who connives. Lol!

I thought that a k'nivr/conniver was a strongarmed k'nave possibly armed with knifr who would behave scoundrelish towards people, possibly strong-arm robbing them and killing them, or at the very least intimidating them/cheating out of their blood and treasure. I guess the word "connive" which comes down to us through this history, has in its etymology, just such a description. just a thought.


Could be. Conniving means plotting. So it could have been taking the word knife and using it figuratively (to stab someone in the back- or prior to the common use of threaded screws- they may thought of knifing the way we think of screwing someone). Or they could somehow be related literally -using an actual knife for extortion.



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21 Oct 2017, 2:12 am

naturalplastic wrote:
well these people are clearly misinformed about their own heritage

Prior to the arrival of Celtic and German speakers there were populations already living this part of Europe. In modern France and Spain they spoke Basque. The indigenous groups stuck in the north after the ice age probably evolved their own language. The Germanic tribes took over their lands and probably their language/culture but the people maintained their own identity - I think these people are the Frisians. The indigenous population stuck in the island of Britain were never invaded by the Germanic tribes but were swept away by Celtic invaders arriving from Gaul. The Celts couldn't entirely subdue these free spirited people and neither could the Romans. These people were the Picts and they were eventually killed off by the coalition of Celts, Anglo-Saxons and Frisians.
======================================================================

No.
Your narrative is not quite right. And that's not the problem (there are other problems but that isn't one of them) with this modern movement for "Anglish"( this pure Anglo Saxon English they want). It don't see how they are wrongly informed about their heritage. Just wrong headed. In theory you could create an all Anglo Saxon rooted English. Though it would not be the same thing as Old English. But Old English except for a few loan words was all Germanic rooted.

The British Islands were inhabited by the Celtic tribes, and then they were conquered and ruled by the Romans for four hundred years. Then the Romans pulled out, and the Germanic tribes invaded from the east. The Germanic Angles, Saxons, Jutes, and Frisians, all booted the celtes out of the eastern parts of Britain, and Became the modern English. And the Celtic tribes of the west became the Welsh, and the other Celtic folks (the Cornish, Irish, Scots). The Celts of then became the Celts of now. And the Germanic tribes of then became the English of now. There were little blending of the Celtic and Anglo Saxon languages. Early on the Picts got absorbed by Celtic invaders from Ireland whom the Romans knew as "the Scoti" (Skoh-shee). The Irish Scoti invaded northern Britain and absorbed the Pics and became the modern Scots of Scotland. The Pics don't figure in the history of English as a language much.


I agree. The Picts and Scotti later joined together as Scots in common defense against the Vikings.


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cyberdad
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21 Oct 2017, 3:44 am

naturalplastic wrote:
No.
Your narrative is not quite right. Early on the Picts got absorbed by Celtic invaders from Ireland whom the Romans knew as "the Scoti" (Skoh-shee). The Irish Scoti invaded northern Britain and absorbed the Pics and became the modern Scots of Scotland. The Pics don't figure in the history of English as a language much.


I know a thing or two about English history

According to The 9th century Anglo-Saxon Chronicle records that in the year 449 Hengist and Horsa were invited to Britain by Vortigern to assist his forces in fighting the Picts. They landed at Eopwinesfleot (Ebbsfleet), and went on to defeat the Picts wherever they fought them. Hengist and Horsa sent word home to Germany describing "the worthlessness of the Britons, and the richness of the land" and asked for assistance. Their request was granted and support arrived. Afterward, more people arrived in Britain from "the three powers of Germany; the Old Saxons, the Angles, and the Jutes". The Saxons populated Essex, Sussex, and Wessex; the Jutes Kent, the Isle of Wight, and part of Hampshire; and the Angles East Anglia, Mercia, and Northumbria (leaving their original homeland, Angeln, deserted). These forces were led by the brothers Hengist and Horsa, sons of Wihtgils, son of Witta, son of Wecta, son of Woden

Both Gildas in the 6th centrury and later the veberable Bede attest to Vortigen's "mistake" in trying to quell the Picts (who were quite clearly made distinct from the Scotti) he allowed the floodgates to be opened to Germanic peoples to overrun Britain...the rest is history

The reason I am rambling on is the role of the Picts is whitwashed out of British history. The Celts have culturally appropriated the Pictish culture as their own including the druids, mythology, stonehenge other facets of their culture incuding tattooing (for which they were famous)