Are NTs really the black-and-white thinkers??

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Jayo
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19 Nov 2017, 3:40 pm

I mean, if you think about it carefully...it makes sense that we're more grey thinkers and they're more B&W.
While *we* tend to get accused of thinking in black and white, I think that's only true in our tendency towards literal interpretation - and many of us can get better at this with time/practice, cognitive therapy, and self-reflection... yet NTs persist in certain black-and-white patterns. To wit: the attitude of "you either know this or you don't", or being so cocksure that a situation can only be interpreted one way, whereas we see a multitude of interpretations, we see more grey area.

Extend that, if you will, to the realm of beliefs and one's social circle - it seems like NTs are still living in a Cartesian duality where it's "my camp vs. your camp", this manifests in things like online echo chambers, discriminatory practices, unjust presumptions, etc...it shows up in distinctions like Protestant vs. Catholic, Sunni vs. Shi'ite, Democrat vs. Republican, the Sharks and the Jets or the Bloods and the Crips or whatever, and it's persisted over hundreds if not thousands of years to the present day. They believe unequivocally that an opposing camp is scum, the enemy, dumb or evil, or whatever overly absurd labels.

Whereas, we are more enlightened and persuaded by objective reality, and tend to take people as they are, regardless of a more superficial persuasion or social force.



BTDT
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19 Nov 2017, 4:24 pm

Seems to me that there are Aspies who lose friendships and jobs due to black and white thinking. A pretty serious problem considering the importance these Aspies place on friendships and jobs.



Lost_dragon
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20 Nov 2017, 8:44 am

Jayo wrote:
I mean, if you think about it carefully...it makes sense that we're more grey thinkers and they're more B&W.
While *we* tend to get accused of thinking in black and white, I think that's only true in our tendency towards literal interpretation - and many of us can get better at this with time/practice, cognitive therapy, and self-reflection...


OK, so I'm going to take from this that when you say NT, you are simply referring to anyone who doesn't have autism (allistic individuals), and in this scenario you are placing people who don't have autism but aren't neurologically typical in the NT category, as well as people who are neurologically typical.

You mention literal interpretation, and granted from what I gather it's fairly common for aspies to be more on the literal side, however I feel like it should be mentioned that some people without autism can be quite literal too.

I'm still trying to understand what people mean by autistic people being black and white thinkers, (it would be nice to have some examples that show why people think this about such individuals), and personally I don't know how people view me when it comes to how I present my thoughts. I'd like to think I'm a fairly grey thinker, and that I'm seen as one, I guess? Certainly not 50 shades of it though, haha. :lol:

Jayo wrote:
yet NTs persist in certain black-and-white patterns. To wit: the attitude of "you either know this or you don't", or being so cocksure that a situation can only be interpreted one way, whereas we see a multitude of interpretations, we see more grey area.


Granted, some NT's may act like this, but I think you are painting people with a bit of broad brush here.

Jayo wrote:
Extend that, if you will, to the realm of beliefs and one's social circle - it seems like NTs are still living in a Cartesian duality where it's "my camp vs. your camp"


Ah, so this post is about "Us VS them" mentalities. But...I fail to see how this directly translates into allistic individuals VS autistic people, since surely there are autistic people out there who fall into such camps/ mentalities?

Jayo wrote:
this manifests in things like online echo chambers


So...people backing up other people's beliefs due to cliquey behaviour run on cognitive bias? Isn't that what's happening here? (You posted this in the hope that people would reaffirm your belief that NT's are black and white thinkers, which is clear by the leading statements, and persuasive techniques you used when writing this).

Jayo wrote:
discriminatory practices, unjust presumptions, etc


Again, I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive. I've seen plenty of people here who are autistic, and have said some fairly discriminatory things, and made unjust presumptions. In fact, one could argue that's what you are doing right now, when it comes to how you are presenting the NT population.

Jayo wrote:
It shows up in distinctions like Protestant vs. Catholic


This doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not someone is NT, but rather it's about social and historical context. Anyone can fall victim to black and white thinking, if they a raised a certain way (i.e. to dislike people of a different religion) however, it is possible for people to escape such thinking, as they grow and their view of the world changes.

Also, not every Protestant hates Catholics, and not all Catholics hate Protestants. Granted, this rivalry does still exist in some areas/places, but I'd say this mentality is a lot less widespread as it once was. Autistic people can be Catholic. They can also be Protestant, or any religion (or lack thereof) for that matter. Same goes for allistic individuals.

Jayo wrote:
Sunni vs. Shi'ite


Also a matter of religious differences with social and historical context, rather than neurological status.

Jayo wrote:
Democrat vs. Republican, the Sharks and the Jets or the Bloods and the Crips or whatever, and it's persisted over hundreds if not thousands of years to the present day. They believe unequivocally that an opposing camp is scum, the enemy, dumb or evil, or whatever overly absurd labels.

Whereas, we are more enlightened and persuaded by objective reality, and tend to take people as they are, regardless of a more superficial persuasion or social force.


I fail to follow how any of this shows that autistic people are somehow more enlightened. :? Also, how does being persuaded only by objective reality, somehow relate to more grey thinking? Surely it implies the other? Fitting to my name, right now I feel lost. :|

Are you trying to say that autistic people are better at making decisions, because they don't let emotional connections to social groups, or superficial judgements get in the way of objective facts? Is that what you were going for? If so, I'd suggest putting that broad brush of yours down for a moment.



EzraS
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20 Nov 2017, 8:56 am

Jayo wrote:
I mean, if you think about it carefully...it makes sense that we're more grey thinkers and they're more B&W.
While *we* tend to get accused of thinking in black and white, I think that's only true in our tendency towards literal interpretation - and many of us can get better at this with time/practice, cognitive therapy, and self-reflection... yet NTs persist in certain black-and-white patterns. To wit: the attitude of "you either know this or you don't", or being so cocksure that a situation can only be interpreted one way, whereas we see a multitude of interpretations, we see more grey area.

Extend that, if you will, to the realm of beliefs and one's social circle - it seems like NTs are still living in a Cartesian duality where it's "my camp vs. your camp", this manifests in things like online echo chambers, discriminatory practices, unjust presumptions, etc...it shows up in distinctions like Protestant vs. Catholic, Sunni vs. Shi'ite, Democrat vs. Republican, the Sharks and the Jets or the Bloods and the Crips or whatever, and it's persisted over hundreds if not thousands of years to the present day. They believe unequivocally that an opposing camp is scum, the enemy, dumb or evil, or whatever overly absurd labels.

Whereas, we are more enlightened and persuaded by objective reality, and tend to take people as they are, regardless of a more superficial persuasion or social force.


You don't spend much time in Wrong Planet's Philosophy, Politics and Religion section, do you?

I see virtually no difference between it and identical debate sections in other forums consisting mainly of "NT's".



TheAP
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20 Nov 2017, 9:39 am

Jayo wrote:
Extend that, if you will, to the realm of beliefs and one's social circle - it seems like NTs are still living in a Cartesian duality where it's "my camp vs. your camp", this manifests in things like online echo chambers, discriminatory practices, unjust presumptions, etc...it shows up in distinctions like Protestant vs. Catholic, Sunni vs. Shi'ite, Democrat vs. Republican, the Sharks and the Jets or the Bloods and the Crips or whatever, and it's persisted over hundreds if not thousands of years to the present day. They believe unequivocally that an opposing camp is scum, the enemy, dumb or evil, or whatever overly absurd labels.

Aren't you doing the same thing by making a division between autistics and NTs?



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20 Nov 2017, 11:09 am

When they say autistic people being black and white thinkers, they mean they are adherence to the rules and their routines and think they are always right and not see from another perspective and their literal thinking.


Black and white thinking is also a spectrum and it means different things. For borderlines it means they split so if they get upset with you, you are all of a sudden a bad person and they react to it. Then the next thing you know, they think you are the greatest when they are calm. If you don't see things their way, you're stupid and bad and against them.


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LoveNotHate
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20 Nov 2017, 11:59 am

On the PPR forum, it's clearer.

Often, ASD people are "locked into" ideas.

"evolution is a fact" is a popular one

If you are argue the obvious, that no one knows, then you're accused of being a creationist.

Gray area/middle ground/alternate explanations appear unacceptable.



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20 Nov 2017, 8:41 pm

I think everyone is stubborn in their own way. A lot of arguments have been going on for years.



ToughDiamond
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21 Nov 2017, 1:16 pm

I found the autistic black-and-white thinking problem the easiest autistic problem to overcome, up to a point, because it made logical sense that most things are actually grey, so it was just a matter of correcting myself whenever I was seeing anything as binary. The limitation is that I don't always spot it quickly. But when I do, it can facilitate useful compromises with people and in my general decision-making.

I haven't seen much direct evidence that NTs are particularly good at grey thinking. All I know is that I used to be much more stuck on binary thinking than I am now, and that when they taught us about quantitative things in science and about how most controversies don't have an objective resolution one way or the other, I was very wary at first, it seemed a very complicated thing to work with. I always figured the NTs would have taken these ideas in their stride, but they never said.



kraftiekortie
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21 Nov 2017, 1:20 pm

Sometimes, it does seem that way......



akn90
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21 Nov 2017, 2:32 pm

What if everyone, regardless of neurological conditions, suffers from black and white thinking when it comes to some behaviors, mindsets, etc and sees shades of gray in others?



starkid
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21 Nov 2017, 9:09 pm

Jayo wrote:
it seems like NTs are still living in a Cartesian duality where it's "my camp vs. your camp", this manifests in things like online echo chambers, discriminatory practices, unjust presumptions, etc...it shows up in distinctions like Protestant vs. Catholic, Sunni vs. Shi'ite, Democrat vs. Republican, the Sharks and the Jets or the Bloods and the Crips or whatever, and it's persisted over hundreds if not thousands of years to the present day. They believe unequivocally that an opposing camp is scum, the enemy, dumb or evil, or whatever overly absurd labels.

Whereas, we are more enlightened and persuaded by objective reality, and tend to take people as they are, regardless of a more superficial persuasion or social force.

I think autistic people being less into the "us vs. them" drama has less to do with autistic enlightenment and more to do with autistic people not understanding the social dynamics underlying these issues, assuming you mean autistic people when you say "us" and "we."


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23 Nov 2017, 1:16 am

I think that everyone has black and white thinking about different things.


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24 Nov 2017, 3:27 am

Not sure I completely understand the black & white thinking idea, but in my experiences, NT's have a tendency to be very inconsistent, or I'm just not understanding the pattern. For example, it seemed as if I were being praised for something, but then was criticized for what I had been praised minutes to days before, by the same people. It happened so frequently, I began to not take any praise seriously, because I knew the criticism would soon follow. It never made sense. I wasn't looking for praise for anything, they just spontaneously gave it to me & then would take it back. Can't be sure, but maybe they didn't want me to have an enlarged ego. No chance of that, because so many people took back their praise & criticized me often. I notice lots of adults fear giving certain kids praise. There was a girl in my 5th grade class & the teacher always talked to her in a negative way, even when she was being good. Those negative views of kids need to reset & start new every morning, but they don't.