Libertarian socialism: the superior socialism

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RushKing
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01 Jun 2018, 9:37 am

Fnord wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
Doesn't Libertarianism favor a more Capitalistic economy rather than a Socialistic one.
Yes. Specifically, a "Laissez-Faire" economy - one in which government controls are relaxed, and individuals are allowed to make as much money and keep as much of the profits for themselves as they can.

This is another point upon which Libertarianism and Socialism are in direct conflict with each other.

No,

Anarchism is the original definition of libertarianism.

Capitalism can't function without a state. Private property is a state sanction.



Fnord
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01 Jun 2018, 1:58 pm

RushKing wrote:
... Capitalism can't function without a state. Private property is a state sanction.
:roll: You have two cows. You buy a bull. Soon, you have two cows, a bull, two calves, and a monopoly on the local milk supply. You sell one calf to a butcher and buy another bull. The remaining calf grows up. You mate it with the bull. Soon, it has a calf and starts producing milk. You sell its calf to the butcher. You raise the price of the milk and use the profits to buy another bull. You now have three cows, three bulls, and an even greater monopoly on the local milk supply.

Someone tries to rustle your cattle. You shoot him dead for trying to steal your property. There is no government to tell you that you've broken the law. You go on increasing your herd. You buy more land with the profits from selling milk, beef, and veal. You hire workers to wrangle your cattle and manage your crops. You pay those workers a subsistence wage to maximize your profits, which steadily increase...



Dylanperr
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01 Jun 2018, 8:38 pm

I took a political quiz called 8values I got Revolutionary Socialism so I am an Autistic Socialist.



RushKing
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01 Jun 2018, 11:42 pm

Fnord wrote:
RushKing wrote:
... Capitalism can't function without a state. Private property is a state sanction.
:roll: You have two cows. You buy a bull. Soon, you have two cows, a bull, two calves, and a monopoly on the local milk supply. You sell one calf to a butcher and buy another bull. The remaining calf grows up. You mate it with the bull. Soon, it has a calf and starts producing milk. You sell its calf to the butcher. You raise the price of the milk and use the profits to buy another bull. You now have three cows, three bulls, and an even greater monopoly on the local milk supply.

Someone tries to rustle your cattle. You shoot him dead for trying to steal your property. There is no government to tell you that you've broken the law. You go on increasing your herd. You buy more land with the profits from selling milk, beef, and veal. You hire workers to wrangle your cattle and manage your crops. You pay those workers a subsistence wage to maximize your profits, which steadily increase...

Capitalism and private property isn't a single person selling cows.

The person in your story is relying on other people to partake in the same mode of production and exchange. What would he do if the local population was vegan?

-And if the local population were anarchists, he'd have real tough time especially after finding out about the murder.



Dylanperr
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02 Jun 2018, 1:36 am

RushKing wrote:
Fnord wrote:
RushKing wrote:
... Capitalism can't function without a state. Private property is a state sanction.
:roll: You have two cows. You buy a bull. Soon, you have two cows, a bull, two calves, and a monopoly on the local milk supply. You sell one calf to a butcher and buy another bull. The remaining calf grows up. You mate it with the bull. Soon, it has a calf and starts producing milk. You sell its calf to the butcher. You raise the price of the milk and use the profits to buy another bull. You now have three cows, three bulls, and an even greater monopoly on the local milk supply.

Someone tries to rustle your cattle. You shoot him dead for trying to steal your property. There is no government to tell you that you've broken the law. You go on increasing your herd. You buy more land with the profits from selling milk, beef, and veal. You hire workers to wrangle your cattle and manage your crops. You pay those workers a subsistence wage to maximize your profits, which steadily increase...

Capitalism and private property isn't a single person selling cows.

The person in your story is relying on other people to partake in the same mode of production and exchange. What would he do if the local population was vegan?

-And if the local population were anarchists, he'd have real tough time especially after finding out about the murder.

Communism can't function without a state because it is purely state controlled. Fascism there is no chance with it functioning without a state either.



RushKing
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02 Jun 2018, 11:25 am

Dylanperr wrote:
Marxism-leninism can't function without a state because it is purely state controlled.

Fixed



Dylanperr
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02 Jun 2018, 2:49 pm

RushKing wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
Marxism-leninism can't function without a state because it is purely state controlled.

Fixed

What do you mean by fixed?



DarthMetaKnight
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02 Jun 2018, 2:53 pm

Dylanperr wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
Marxism-leninism can't function without a state because it is purely state controlled.

Fixed

What do you mean by fixed?


He means that communism is more complicated than you think. Not all forms of communism rely on state control.

To be fair, most forms of communism that have been tried rely on state control. That's where the confusion comes from.


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Dylanperr
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02 Jun 2018, 7:34 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
Marxism-leninism can't function without a state because it is purely state controlled.

Fixed

What do you mean by fixed?


He means that communism is more complicated than you think. Not all forms of communism rely on state control.

To be fair, most forms of communism that have been tried rely on state control. That's where the confusion comes from.

How do some forms of Communism not require state control?



DarthMetaKnight
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02 Jun 2018, 7:37 pm

Dylanperr wrote:
How do some forms of Communism not require state control?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism


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Dylanperr
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02 Jun 2018, 7:45 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
How do some forms of Communism not require state control?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism

How does it work without government.



RushKing
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03 Jun 2018, 7:17 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
Marxism-leninism can't function without a state because it is purely state controlled.

Fixed

What do you mean by fixed?


He means that communism is more complicated than you think. Not all forms of communism rely on state control.

To be fair, most forms of communism that have been tried rely on state control. That's where the confusion comes from.

Yea, marxism-leninism was very dominant in the 20th century.



RushKing
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03 Jun 2018, 7:18 pm

Dylanperr wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
How do some forms of Communism not require state control?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism

How does it work without government.

Hello Dylanperr,

That is a very open-ended question. Is there a specific topic you are curious about? Policy, defence?



Dylanperr
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03 Jun 2018, 8:33 pm

RushKing wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
How do some forms of Communism not require state control?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism

How does it work without government.

Hello Dylanperr,

That is a very open-ended question. Is there a specific topic you are curious about? Policy, defence?

How does Anarcho Communism work without a state or government?



RushKing
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03 Jun 2018, 9:44 pm

Dylanperr wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Dylanperr wrote:
How do some forms of Communism not require state control?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-communism

How does it work without government.

Hello Dylanperr,

That is a very open-ended question. Is there a specific topic you are curious about? Policy, defence?

How does Anarcho Communism work without a state or government?


Read Anarchist FAQ, Anarchy Works by Peter Gelderloos, Conquest of Bread by Peter Kropotkin etc.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library ... rchist-faq

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library ... rchy-works

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library ... t-of-bread



vaguelyhumanoid
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10 Jun 2018, 4:02 pm

Now this is my kind of thread! For what it's worth, the first ever use of the word "libertarian" was by Joseph Dejacque, an anarcho-communist, in 1861 - he founded a journal called La Libertaire (The Libertarian). Right-wing capitalists didn't start using the term until the 20th century, where it was co-opted in the works of Austrian economists like Ludwig Von Mises and Murray Rothbard.

By the way, all the people talking about governments taking people's cows or whatever are miseducated about the definition of socialism. Socialism is not state ownership, it is worker ownership. Anti-authoritarian socialists like Emma Goldman and Rosa Luxemburg were among the first people to criticize the Bolshevik regime, and among the first to be purged - look up the Kronstadt rebellion, where anarchist and democratic socialist navy men went on strike against the Soviet government, and were executed en masse for it.