Since when do right wingers care so much about birds?

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Pepe
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26 Jan 2018, 5:55 pm

b9 wrote:

Pepe wrote:
Regarding your other point suggesting life is a gift, correct me if I am wrong but I believed Charles Darwin was appalled at the cruelty involved in the life system...


no it's just hard luck. there is no such thing as cruelty really in the natural world.



Quote:
“What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering, low, and horribly cruel work of nature!”
Charles Darwin
[letter to his friend Joseph Hooker (1856)]

https://www.reproductive-revolution.com ... arwin.html

Just say'n... :mrgreen:


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


auntblabby
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26 Jan 2018, 6:24 pm

if I was a prey animal getting attacked by a predator, having his bones crunched and muscles/sinews torn every which way and nerves screaming in agony, I would consider that cruel.



b9
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26 Jan 2018, 10:52 pm

B19 wrote:
b9, my second favourite Ozzie bird is the magnificent sea eagle. Saw them hunting this year at the Lone Pine Sanctuary up the river in Brisbane, they have a few different kinds of raptors there and show them all doing their hunt thing.


i had no dangerously predatory birds in my yard. (i do not live there any more due to the house being reclaimed by the council for a road)
i would consider an eagle/raptor an unwelcome guest to my yard.
the kookaburras eat small things like lizards and.....mice. i also had a family of mice in the back shed, and they would appear in the late afternoon and they were very tame. they never bred out of control. there were 8 of them.
an eagle would have cleaned them up quick smart, and also the only natural predators of kookies are eagles and hawks. the eagles would have even preyed on the parrots.
not welcome here. the kookies never paid much attention to the mice.

B19 wrote:
Generally though, Oz birds are very colourful, whereas our NZ forest birds have plumage that blends in with their environment. You know they are there by the beautiful bird song. There was a native eagle here too once, the Haast Eagle, but sadly it is extinct. So I will have to keep visiting Australia :)))

i love the innocence of the birds, and their trust in me.
you may notice the kookaburras open their mouths for me like chicks being fed by their mother, even though they are fully grown.
that was pricelessly satisfying to me.

here is one more small video of my mice.....actually no. it is railroading off the topic.



b9
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26 Jan 2018, 11:15 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
^Yeah, that plant is using heliostat mirrors (think magnifying glass on grass), home use PV (photovoltiac) cells don't do anything like that. Lose the mirrors and it's not an issue. If that's what we're talking about then it's not an indictment against all solar but that specific type of solar. Furthermore, one could erect an aviary cage around the entire solar plant to keep birds out at a moderate cost. Point being solar panels aren't inherently dangerous to wildlife, the poor industrial practices of humans are.

not heliostatic, but more heliotropic are the mirrors.

anyway, to build a cage with a radius equal to the safe distance for birds to fly past would require a lot of wire (or whatever thinner material one could concoct), and if you add up the square area of occlusion to incoming light, it would significantly reduce the efficiency of the station.
it is a difficult one to solve really.
i briefly thought of a 1000 watt whistle mechanism at a frequency too high to incur the wrath of surrounding residents (1kw is nothing in the power output of the station).
but then i realized that birds are not known for their auditory acuity.
no birds have anything but a hole in the side of their heads to hear with. no pointy sound capturing ears etc.
so i guess hearing is not something that birds need much. it therefore may mean that no frequency would deter them. maybe the answer is to have a charcoal game bird takeaway food shop built in the perimeter. (joke)

but when i see huge forest fires, i know that hundreds of thousands of animals and birds are killed in the event, but the news is only worried about human casualties.

on a scale of things, solar array collectors are probably a very small contributor to bird deaths.



b9
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26 Jan 2018, 11:37 pm

Pepe wrote:
b9 wrote:

Pepe wrote:
Regarding your other point suggesting life is a gift, correct me if I am wrong but I believed Charles Darwin was appalled at the cruelty involved in the life system...


no it's just hard luck. there is no such thing as cruelty really in the natural world.



Quote:
“What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering, low, and horribly cruel work of nature!”
Charles Darwin
[letter to his friend Joseph Hooker (1856)]

https://www.reproductive-revolution.com ... arwin.html

Just say'n... :mrgreen:



Pepe
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26 Jan 2018, 11:40 pm

b9 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
b9 wrote:

Pepe wrote:
Regarding your other point suggesting life is a gift, correct me if I am wrong but I believed Charles Darwin was appalled at the cruelty involved in the life system...


no it's just hard luck. there is no such thing as cruelty really in the natural world.



Quote:
“What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering, low, and horribly cruel work of nature!”
Charles Darwin
[letter to his friend Joseph Hooker (1856)]

https://www.reproductive-revolution.com ... arwin.html

Just say'n... :mrgreen:


Que? :mrgreen:


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Syd
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26 Jan 2018, 11:42 pm

Right-winged birds and left-winged birds tend to fly in circles and never get anywhere. Good thing I'm ambidextrous.



auntblabby
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26 Jan 2018, 11:46 pm

this bird is also largely ambidextrous.



b9
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26 Jan 2018, 11:58 pm

Pepe wrote:
b9 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
b9 wrote:

Pepe wrote:
Regarding your other point suggesting life is a gift, correct me if I am wrong but I believed Charles Darwin was appalled at the cruelty involved in the life system...


no it's just hard luck. there is no such thing as cruelty really in the natural world.



Quote:
“What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering, low, and horribly cruel work of nature!”
Charles Darwin
[letter to his friend Joseph Hooker (1856)]

https://www.reproductive-revolution.com ... arwin.html

Just say'n... :mrgreen:


Que? :mrgreen:

the stuff i posted in response was lost, and it was voluminous and i can't be bothered retyping it.



b9
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27 Jan 2018, 12:01 am

Syd wrote:
Right-winged birds and left-winged birds tend to fly in circles and never get anywhere. Good thing I'm ambidextrous.

you beat me to this statement blast it.

i was going to say "right wingers fly in anticlockwise circles, and left wingers fly in clockwise circles, but if they both joined forces they could fly straight ahead".



auntblabby
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27 Jan 2018, 12:02 am

fat lotta luck that happenin.'



Pepe
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27 Jan 2018, 12:03 am

b9 wrote:
the stuff i posted in response was lost, and it was voluminous and i can't be bothered retyping it.


Sorry to hear that...
I thought that was the case...
Been there so many times...

It happens all too frequently on this website...
What I do is regularly copy my reply into word pad in case things crash...


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Aristophanes
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27 Jan 2018, 8:26 am

b9 wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
^Yeah, that plant is using heliostat mirrors (think magnifying glass on grass), home use PV (photovoltiac) cells don't do anything like that. Lose the mirrors and it's not an issue. If that's what we're talking about then it's not an indictment against all solar but that specific type of solar. Furthermore, one could erect an aviary cage around the entire solar plant to keep birds out at a moderate cost. Point being solar panels aren't inherently dangerous to wildlife, the poor industrial practices of humans are.

not heliostatic, but more heliotropic are the mirrors.

anyway, to build a cage with a radius equal to the safe distance for birds to fly past would require a lot of wire (or whatever thinner material one could concoct), and if you add up the square area of occlusion to incoming light, it would significantly reduce the efficiency of the station.
it is a difficult one to solve really.
i briefly thought of a 1000 watt whistle mechanism at a frequency too high to incur the wrath of surrounding residents (1kw is nothing in the power output of the station).
but then i realized that birds are not known for their auditory acuity.
no birds have anything but a hole in the side of their heads to hear with. no pointy sound capturing ears etc.
so i guess hearing is not something that birds need much. it therefore may mean that no frequency would deter them. maybe the answer is to have a charcoal game bird takeaway food shop built in the perimeter. (joke)

but when i see huge forest fires, i know that hundreds of thousands of animals and birds are killed in the event, but the news is only worried about human casualties.

on a scale of things, solar array collectors are probably a very small contributor to bird deaths.

No, they're heliostatic, I looked the facility up and did some research when I made my post. Wikipedia's page on Ivanpah. Ivanpah's corporate page.

And yes, a cage would diffuse light and thus draw less power, as would removing the heliostatic mirrors (much more than the atrium would tbh). The thing is I'm not looking at this problem as a scientific equation to maximize power generation because that's the problem with most industrial practices: maximize yield, f**k consequences. I'm looking at this holistically: there are ways to generate solar power and still prevent environmental degradation. That's the case with a lot of industrial practices, there are ways to minimize their impact but in business's drive for highest yield and lowest cost they pass that environmental cost onto local communities (fracking as an example) or future generations (Baotou toxic lake as an example).

It's a completely different philosophical approach. I don't believe bigger is always better, nor do I believe in 'more, more, more', the two fundamental attitudes of modern cultures. I believe in having 'enough', and that size is relative to the problem at hand.



b9
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27 Jan 2018, 11:19 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
No, they're heliostatic, I looked the facility up and did some research when I made my post. Wikipedia's page on Ivanpah. Ivanpah's corporate page.

without reading your link, i nevertheless conclude you are correct.
one thing i miss are the days back when there was no google and people had intelligent conversations from their gathered stock of knowledge paired with clever reasoning.
now anyone can join in any conversation by just googling it. i call them google professors.
now i am not deprecating you (and you had the honesty to post a link), and your answer is informed.
my answer was not.
but i enjoy reasoning and not just looking up the answers.

so the reason i conclude you are correct is that i realized that it is PV panels in "panel farms" that move to track the sun, not the mirrors in solar arrays.
they must be static or else their focus would shift away from the collector.

Aristophanes wrote:
And yes, a cage would diffuse light and thus draw less power, as would removing the heliostatic mirrors (much more than the atrium would tbh).

that's a fact captain. the removal of the mirrors would render the whole structure useless.

Aristophanes wrote:
The thing is I'm not looking at this problem as a scientific equation to maximize power generation because that's the problem with most industrial practices: maximize yield, f**k consequences. I'm looking at this holistically: there are ways to generate solar power and still prevent environmental degradation.

not doable without big money, and big money always demands a "cost-benefit" analysis to be done. sad but true.
the cage would reduce the benefit of the array to a point where it does not justify the cost.

there has to be unfound solutions to energy generation (or essentially-"energy transference") yet to be discovered.

we need to focus on superconductors at any temperature for example. present superconductors only have that property at very low temperatures (-180c and lower).
not feasible to encase superconducting "wire" in a bath of liquid nitrogen for thousands of miles.

i think the answer will be a new type of photo voltaic cell that has 1000's of times the efficiency of current ones once "all temperature" superconductors are invented.
the sun is always shining somewhere in the world and if a global superconductor grid could be built that connects the whole earth, with no energy lost in transmission over thousands of miles, then that may be worth looking into.

there are just too many people though.
if you make energy cheap and clean, then a population explosion will occur and....i dunno.



LoveNotHate
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28 Jan 2018, 12:21 am

Not "right wingers", rather "conservationists" are sueing these solar plants.

Solar Farms Threaten Birds
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ten-birds/


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