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Closet Genious
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20 Feb 2018, 3:04 pm

I think you demonstrated quite well with your post here, that alot of people "on the left" lack critical thinking too.
Personally, I think the moment people start subscribing to "left" and "right" as ideologies, is the moment a person stops thinking critically.

When americans use scandinavian countries as examples, there's a bunch of things you get wrong. The biggest one though, is that you think the welfare system we have in place here, is what made us rich. We have the welfare system we have, because we were rich in the first place.

In my country, sweden, our current level of social security is actually unsustainable, and we're getting poorer and poorer each year. This is mostly due to immigration.
I actually support the idea of a generous welfare state, but it only works under extremely specific conditions.



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20 Feb 2018, 4:40 pm

STEM students and teachers are typically political polar opposites from their humanities peers.


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Pepe
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20 Feb 2018, 5:29 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I recently read another thread here whether there is a Leftist Agenda in Academia.

I wonder why so many people are busy trying to say "there is no leftist agenda in academia".

It is obvious there IS a Leftist Agenda.

Holey moley...
I like you as a person but I dislike some of what you say...
Was that a balanced opening gambit or wot! :mrgreen:
I hope I created enough brownie points to get us through this post without ripping each other a new one... 8O

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=righ ... 8AeJ35D4CQ
thinkinginpictures wrote:
- all sorts of stuff you learn in acadamia, critical and rational thinking, logic by reason and the scientific method, I bet the vast majority would be leftists, and we wouldn't have a discussion whether or not Donald Trump is good for the world or not - everybody would agree he isn't.

But all those things can be learnt without left wing influences influencing people developing their personal philosophies...
BTW, personally speaking, I think it would have been wiser not to bring Trump into your commentary here if you wanted a more emotionally balanced discussion...
Holding up Trump as *the* representative of conservatism is manipulative...
And I personally think the only reason he got in was that people simply didn't like the alternative, Hillary...
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Now, I am not saying rightwingers are stupid, but I do believe right wing mentality is all about forgetting critical thinking and just obeying orders .

Ironically I was going to say the same thing about moderate conservatives...
Not all conservatives are particularly rational, but there is a tendency, imo, that they are more-so than the garden variety liberals...
On the other hand, leftists have a reputation for being emotionalistic...
Consider the adage: Winston Churchill: "If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain..."
I am open to reconsidering my view here, but it seems to me that left-wing thinkers tend to focus more on emotional idealism whereas the *moderate* right-wingers tend to be more rational...alt-righters are just thug bufoons in my book, as are the far left-wing Nazis...btw...

I will tackle the rest of your post some other time, probably...


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20 Feb 2018, 5:37 pm

Mudboy wrote:
STEM students and teachers are typically political polar opposites from their humanities peers.


Left brain hemisphere dominant as opposed to right brain hemisphere dominant...
Quote:
The right side of the brain is the home to emotions, intuition, creativity, art and music whereas the left side of the brain logic, language, reasoning, analysis and math reign supreme.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=righ ... 8AeJ35D4CQ


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Daniel89
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21 Feb 2018, 3:35 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Daniel89 wrote:
The left does not have a monopoly on science, the left criticises the right for not believing in man made climate change even when the majority of scientists accept it yet they are against GMO even though a higher percentage of scientists believe it to be safe.


There are also plenty of right-wingers like Alex Jones who oppose GMOs on religious grounds.


Yeah but its mostly people on the left. Alex Jones is neither right wing or left wing he is at best a fraud if not controlled opposition.


AJ agrees with the right about 80% of the time.

Controlled opposition? I find it ironic when people dismiss conspiracy theorists with more conspiracy theories.


Alex Jones does not believe what he says. Someone who was actually that mentally unstable could not successfully run a business. He is indeed conspiring to dupe people into believing his lies, I don't know that's simply to make money or because someone if using him for their political gains.



thinkinginpictures
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21 Feb 2018, 8:50 am

Closet Genious wrote:
I think you demonstrated quite well with your post here, that alot of people "on the left" lack critical thinking too.
Personally, I think the moment people start subscribing to "left" and "right" as ideologies, is the moment a person stops thinking critically.

When americans use scandinavian countries as examples, there's a bunch of things you get wrong. The biggest one though, is that you think the welfare system we have in place here, is what made us rich. We have the welfare system we have, because we were rich in the first place.

In my country, sweden, our current level of social security is actually unsustainable, and we're getting poorer and poorer each year. This is mostly due to immigration.
I actually support the idea of a generous welfare state, but it only works under extremely specific conditions.


The problem with the modern welfare state is not the welfare, ie. welfare benefits but that politicians (and voters as well) believe that if you apply enough stressors into the benefits, people will automatically find work, especially if they are sick, disabled or other issues.

This is why I as an extreme leftist, believe in a Basic Income, with no duty to work/activity. However, it should levelled, so those who cannot work get a higher benefit, and the rest may have to live for less. If you earn money, enough to give you the standard minimum income, you don't get the Basic Income, but it starts automtically if you earn less. I can't get into details here, as it is off-topic, but I hope you get the idea.

The idea is to make work voluntary (freedom, liberty) instead of a duty.

The problem with welfare is, generally speaking, the fact that you have no choice. You can't neccessarily choose who should be your carer at home if your a elderly, you cannot choose which hospital if you are sick etc.

Instead people should get a locked amount of money, so to speak, they can use it to get treatment, welfare benefits etc. Only if genuine needs are met can you have more money for welfare, but the idea is liberty and personal freedom.

I'm a leftist, not a communist.



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21 Feb 2018, 10:14 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:

The idea is to make work voluntary (freedom, liberty) instead of a duty.



So I can choose to live off other's blood, sweat and tears infused tax dollar while playing on the beaches of Noosa Heads?

I try not to be a critical person, but I find this absolutely offensive...
An attitude of entitlement is indefensible imo...

May I ask how old you are?


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I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


thinkinginpictures
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22 Feb 2018, 1:13 pm

Pepe wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:

The idea is to make work voluntary (freedom, liberty) instead of a duty.



So I can choose to live off other's blood, sweat and tears infused tax dollar while playing on the beaches of Noosa Heads?

I try not to be a critical person, but I find this absolutely offensive...
An attitude of entitlement is indefensible imo...

May I ask how old you are?


That is not what I was saying.

I am all for work, for embetterment of society, charity or voluntary work, at least doing what are capable of how small your skills may be.

I just find it offensive that society has a need to FORCE people to work. I don't like the use of raw force/power or what is essentially starvation as a tool to make people work.



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22 Feb 2018, 3:05 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Pepe wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:

The idea is to make work voluntary (freedom, liberty) instead of a duty.



So I can choose to live off other's blood, sweat and tears infused tax dollar while playing on the beaches of Noosa Heads?

I try not to be a critical person, but I find this absolutely offensive...
An attitude of entitlement is indefensible imo...

May I ask how old you are?


That is not what I was saying.

I am all for work, for embetterment of society, charity or voluntary work, at least doing what are capable of how small your skills may be.

I just find it offensive that society has a need to FORCE people to work. I don't like the use of raw force/power or what is essentially starvation as a tool to make people work.

Your logic escapes me. People struggle to create food, goods, and services, they do not appear magically. Why should one person, who sweats and bleeds to produce things, give them away to others who produce nothing?


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thinkinginpictures
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22 Feb 2018, 3:28 pm

Mudboy wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Pepe wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:

The idea is to make work voluntary (freedom, liberty) instead of a duty.



So I can choose to live off other's blood, sweat and tears infused tax dollar while playing on the beaches of Noosa Heads?

I try not to be a critical person, but I find this absolutely offensive...
An attitude of entitlement is indefensible imo...

May I ask how old you are?


That is not what I was saying.

I am all for work, for embetterment of society, charity or voluntary work, at least doing what are capable of how small your skills may be.

I just find it offensive that society has a need to FORCE people to work. I don't like the use of raw force/power or what is essentially starvation as a tool to make people work.

Your logic escapes me. People struggle to create food, goods, and services, they do not appear magically. Why should one person, who sweats and bleeds to produce things, give them away to others who produce nothing?


Firstly, you are not asked if you want to pay taxes. You just do, if certain criteria are met by the law.

Secondly, with Basic Income in place, you actually have the opportunity to say "I don't want to pay taxes" and just live off Basic Income - but then you won't have much fun in life, because fun cost money and you probably cannot afford that on Basic Income.

So even in the Basic Income system, where you are granted money for not working, handed to you by the government, you probably would still choose to get a job, a job that gives you enough money so your Basic Income stops automatically. And then you start paying taxes. If you get a job that pays less, your Basic Income will be reduced by a percentage, say 30 % of what you earn + you still pay taxes.

In that sense, you are urged to get a job where you don't need Basic Income anyway. But it will be in place for those seeking a job, but without the stressors of the unemployment benefits where one is forced into all sorts of work assessments etc.

Those who cannot work/provide for themselves due to disability, illness etc., will get more Basic Income.



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22 Feb 2018, 4:25 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Firstly, you are not asked if you want to pay taxes. You just do, if certain criteria are met by the law.

Secondly, with Basic Income in place, you actually have the opportunity to say "I don't want to pay taxes" and just live off Basic Income - but then you won't have much fun in life, because fun cost money and you probably cannot afford that on Basic Income.

So even in the Basic Income system, where you are granted money for not working, handed to you by the government, you probably would still choose to get a job, a job that gives you enough money so your Basic Income stops automatically. And then you start paying taxes. If you get a job that pays less, your Basic Income will be reduced by a percentage, say 30 % of what you earn + you still pay taxes.

In that sense, you are urged to get a job where you don't need Basic Income anyway. But it will be in place for those seeking a job, but without the stressors of the unemployment benefits where one is forced into all sorts of work assessments etc.

Those who cannot work/provide for themselves due to disability, illness etc., will get more Basic Income.

Where does this basic income come from if no one has to work? Whre do taxes come from if no one hase to work? Where does food come from if no one is growing it?


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Pepe
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22 Feb 2018, 4:52 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:

Firstly, you are not asked if you want to pay taxes. You just do, if certain criteria are met by the law.

Without us paying taxes there would not be the energy grid, transportation, public health care (here is Australia...don't know what you guys have), emergency services like police, firemen, paramedics, etc, etc, etc...
If you use these services, morally you are obliged to help pay for them...

thinkinginpictures wrote:
Secondly, with Basic Income in place, you actually have the opportunity to say "I don't want to pay taxes" and just live off Basic Income - but then you won't have much fun in life, because fun cost money and you probably cannot afford that on Basic Income.

But this is still a parasitic *attitude* because even basic income comes out of our tax dollar...
I am not sure why you have difficulty with this concept...
BTW, where do you think the money the government has comes from?

I don't have a problem with helping others less fortunate...
I have a problem with people who have a parasitic attitude of entitlement...
I have a problem with those who think we who contribute are there to serve their selfish requirements...

thinkinginpictures wrote:
So even in the Basic Income system, where you are granted money for not working, handed to you by the government, you probably would still choose to get a job, a job that gives you enough money so your Basic Income stops automatically. And then you start paying taxes. If you get a job that pays less, your Basic Income will be reduced by a percentage, say 30 % of what you earn + you still pay taxes.


Most want to work...despite not wanting to work...
But there are those who can work but choose not to because of their attitude of entitlement...

Here in Australia, we have an expression called: "dole bludger"...
Often these social parasites will travel to an area where job prospects are virtually zero so they can collect the dole with very little prospect of finding work...
Many of these social parasites will board with other like thinking people, thus making the rental burden minimal...

There are whole communities over here who live around sunny beaches surfing or whatever virtually all day and partying virtually all night...

I know of people who supplement their income through criminal activities, gaining tax-free dollars while being supported by working individuals...
It is these sorts of people which make it necessary for some of the harsher measures involved to qualify for government handouts...
Blame them for the suffering of *genuine* people <sic>

thinkinginpictures wrote:
In that sense, you are urged to get a job where you don't need Basic Income anyway. But it will be in place for those seeking a job, but without the stressors of the unemployment benefits where one is forced into all sorts of work assessments etc.


Most people don't enjoy work...
Most workers don't enjoy their work...
People usually work to live, not live to work...

I'm retired now...early retirement...
I hated my job to the point I retired early...
But I persisted until I could be financially independent...

A parasitical mindset doesn't validate a parasitical lifestyle...
People with an attitude of entitlment who are capable of working but expect others to provide for them simply because "they don't want to" <pout> need to grow up...

We all have to do things we don't want to in this life system...
But other people aren't one's personal "runner boy", "gofer", "man servant", "squire", "butler"...

I thank you...
<bow>
<exit stage right>


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


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22 Feb 2018, 6:16 pm

Pepe wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
If you use these services, morally you are obliged to help pay for them...

But we are more or less forced to use them. I don't feel obligated to help pay for something I can't opt out of.


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22 Feb 2018, 6:55 pm

starkid wrote:
Pepe wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
If you use these services, morally you are obliged to help pay for them...

But we are more or less forced to use them. I don't feel obligated to help pay for something I can't opt out of.


Do you use a toilet?
You are ignoring my point... :wink:


_________________
I'm a thinker. Some think I'm a stinker. Pepe le Pew. ;)
Down with big business!...
I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


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22 Feb 2018, 7:34 pm

Pepe wrote:
starkid wrote:
Pepe wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
If you use these services, morally you are obliged to help pay for them...

But we are more or less forced to use them. I don't feel obligated to help pay for something I can't opt out of.


Do you use a toilet?
You are ignoring my point... :wink:

Yes. Against my will. I prefer to void outdoors. You have no idea what's going on in my mind so I'll thank you to not assume that I'm ignoring anything. Forget it, I'm done with this thread.


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