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thinkinginpictures
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23 Feb 2018, 8:41 am

Mudboy wrote:
thinkinginpictures wrote:
Firstly, you are not asked if you want to pay taxes. You just do, if certain criteria are met by the law.

Secondly, with Basic Income in place, you actually have the opportunity to say "I don't want to pay taxes" and just live off Basic Income - but then you won't have much fun in life, because fun cost money and you probably cannot afford that on Basic Income.

So even in the Basic Income system, where you are granted money for not working, handed to you by the government, you probably would still choose to get a job, a job that gives you enough money so your Basic Income stops automatically. And then you start paying taxes. If you get a job that pays less, your Basic Income will be reduced by a percentage, say 30 % of what you earn + you still pay taxes.

In that sense, you are urged to get a job where you don't need Basic Income anyway. But it will be in place for those seeking a job, but without the stressors of the unemployment benefits where one is forced into all sorts of work assessments etc.

Those who cannot work/provide for themselves due to disability, illness etc., will get more Basic Income.

Where does this basic income come from if no one has to work? Whre do taxes come from if no one hase to work? Where does food come from if no one is growing it?


It is obvious that if nobody would work and 100 % stayed at home at basic income, society will collapse. However, I don't believe this will ever come so far.

People still have incentive to work even with Basic Income in place.
And with work you get wages, with wages come taxes.

Why does everybody assume that nobody would work if they could get a free meal?
If housing, food, medical aid and other basic neccessities are met, people automatically assume people would stop working.

I find it hard to understand that "logic". If anything, if you get a free meal and society put trust in you and have faith that you will do your best, you would do your best including work, if you can.

People always assume those on welfare are the worst criminals ever, and that disabled people should be treated like criminals, who should be forced to work.

I find that kind of reasoning difficult to understand.

In addition, I generally find it hard to understand the following "logic":

"If everybody acted like you this and this would happen".

- but nobody are like you or me or anybody else! Nobody are like everybody else. We are all different.



Daniel89
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23 Feb 2018, 11:30 am

I think a better solution would be everyone work less. Maybe the government could stop taxing income and tax how many hours someone works after a certain point.



Mudboy
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23 Feb 2018, 1:10 pm

Where does this basic income come from if no one has to work? Where do taxes come from if no one has to work? Where does food come from if no one is growing it?

thinkinginpictures wrote:
It is obvious that if nobody would work and 100 % stayed at home at basic income, society will collapse. However, I don't believe this will ever come so far.

People still have incentive to work even with Basic Income in place.
And with work you get wages, with wages come taxes.

Why does everybody assume that nobody would work if they could get a free meal?
If housing, food, medical aid and other basic neccessities are met, people automatically assume people would stop working.
I find it hard to understand that "logic". If anything, if you get a free meal and society put trust in you and have faith that you will do your best, you would do your best including work, if you can.

People always assume those on welfare are the worst criminals ever, and that disabled people should be treated like criminals, who should be forced to work.
I find that kind of reasoning difficult to understand.

In addition, I generally find it hard to understand the following "logic":
"If everybody acted like you this and this would happen".

- but nobody are like you or me or anybody else! Nobody are like everybody else. We are all different.

With your logic, society would indeed collapse. Enough people will choose not to work that the producers will be out numbered by the parasites. What kind of people would be stupid enough to be productive, if the vast majority of the fruits of thier labors are stolen from them? This has been proven by the failures of communist countries.
Welfare is for the disabled, and those who need temporary. help. Those who are able in body and mind, and are on welfare, are definied in the dictionary as parasitical. Again by definition, parasites demand more and more of thier host, until it dies.
Do you think lice, ticks, and other parasites deserve to live on your body?


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Last edited by Mudboy on 23 Feb 2018, 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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23 Feb 2018, 4:56 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:


Why does everybody assume that nobody would work if they could get a free meal?
If housing, food, medical aid and other basic neccessities are met, people automatically assume people would stop working.

You are losing credibility at a rate of knots here...
"Everbody"?
Are you using hyperbole?
Do you deny that *some* abuse the system and think it fine to live on other people's work ethic?
Hence the need to introduce harsher incentives to get these social parasites out into the work force?

thinkinginpictures wrote:

I find it hard to understand that "logic". If anything, if you get a free meal and society put trust in you and have faith that you will do your best, you would do your best including work, if you can.

That is a very naive statement...
Once again, how old are you?

thinkinginpictures wrote:

People always assume those on welfare are the worst criminals ever, and that disabled people should be treated like criminals, who should be forced to work.


Matey, at this point you have no credibility with me if you continue to use gross stereotypical nonsense...
No, most people don't assume those on welfare are the worst criminals ever, and that disabled people should be treated like criminals, who should be forced to work.
I dare say that most people think that you are tunnel visioned and refuse to have a more balanced view on this subject


thinkinginpictures wrote:

- but nobody are like you or me or anybody else! Nobody are like everybody else. We are all different.

Well, I agree that there is no one like you... :mrgreen:
At least we agree on something...<sigh>


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pete413
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17 Sep 2018, 12:05 pm

yes, that's because the right wing agenda is stupid and nobody wants to hear it.

If you believe in your little righty world so much, go start your own right wing school and stop complaining.



Mythos
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17 Sep 2018, 12:52 pm

I'm not saying the numbers don't add up, leftists probably do outnumber the righties in academia. With that in mind, does that mean there's a leftist agenda?

I wouldn't say so.

It seems that the majority of scientifically illiterate world beliefs, such as creationism, evolution denial and climate change denial, are almost exclusively conservative. Some theories are leftist in nature, but the most prominent right now seem to be conservative. Could we say this is due to scientific illiteracy and an inability or refusal to educate oneself? I'd say so.

Universities are essentially open areas of education and discussing, debate and protest. In my opinion, they're the most open areas in the world for such things. As a result, you'll see a lot of railing against the corrupting power which, even when such overall power becomes minuscule, will always be conservative due to its tendency to place too much money and influence in the hands of the rich.

Liberals are vocal, and have conviction. A bad thing? Not really.

As for courses, I don't know what happens in sociological studies which lead to Marxist beliefs but it's not my understanding that students become "brainwashed", rather as an intellectual collection of individuals they are more likely to assess both sides and, due to the possible likelihood of being generally liberal, perhaps adopt more extreme socialist views on policy.

That doesn't mean they have to. I don't think students are told straight to their face that Marx was 100% correct, that's absurd.

What's more, as I stated on the previous thread, conservatives are more likely to seek business ventures and fund their own entrepreneurism. I've heard they're more likely to drop out than liberals due to this spirit. There's nothing wrong with that, but as conservatives they rely on free market principles and take advantage of them. Liberals, at least just at a guess, would be more likely to find themselves in public service and STEM.

So, more liberals graduating university means more liberal qualifications. More liberal qualifications means more liberal professors. More liberal professors leads to this belief about bias.

Sure, by sheer numbers, I agree. But by ideological indoctrination, I find it unlikely. I personally haven't experienced it. Unless allowing people to enjoy LGBTQ rights or furthering minority rights is liberal, of course, in which case maybe.



techstepgenr8tion
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17 Sep 2018, 1:18 pm

Mythos wrote:
I wouldn't say so.

It seems that the majority of scientifically illiterate world beliefs, such as creationism, evolution denial and climate change denial, are almost exclusively conservative. Some theories are leftist in nature, but the most prominent right now seem to be conservative. Could we say this is due to scientific illiteracy and an inability or refusal to educate oneself? I'd say so.


Are you familiar with Jonathan Haidt at all? If not you might want to familiarize yourself with his work, Heterodox Academy, etc. to get a sense of what the viewpoint looks like among center-left and left academics who believe there is an unhealthy bias in the current system.


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nephets
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17 Sep 2018, 1:54 pm

There is a strong left-wing Agenda in pretty much any organization funded by the state, which of course includes state-funded education. This is NOT because of the inherent truthfulness of left-wing dogma, which in the main, is infantile nonsense, it is simply a question of money. The right generally favors small government and self-reliance and that of course kills state funded jobs. The justifications of the left for huge state organizations boil down to an extended plea not to have to go out into the world and find a job in the private sector. Many of the denizens of academia are of course utterly unemployable in the real world. Does anybody think there is a demand for someone who is an expert in Gender Studies, without a state subsidy, for example? Of course not. The same can be said for countless other subjects taught across Europe and North America. There is, however, a demand for Engineers, Chemists, Biologists etc., which the First World does not produce enough of and has been importing from outside for decades now. I speak as someone with two History Degrees, who has taught at University level and works in the State Sector. When I was working at a University, a good 80% of the staff were left-wing.



AspE
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17 Sep 2018, 2:24 pm

[quote="Mudboy"
Where does this basic income come from if no one has to work? Whre do taxes come from if no one hase to work? Where does food come from if no one is growing it?[/quote]
People want to work. We have an allegedly booming economy but increasing automation, and increasing income inequality. Agricultural corporations grow our food. We can afford to let that money count for something, and not just let it reinforce an elite ruling class.



techstepgenr8tion
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19 Sep 2018, 9:35 am

Jonathan Haidt and Greg Lukianoff interviewed by Nick Gillespie on their new book Coddling of the American Mind.

I think the point underscored here are that there serious problems taking place, the right is also having a moral panic, the two shouldn't be confused nor should one cancel the other.


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Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 19 Sep 2018, 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

pete413
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19 Sep 2018, 9:42 am

nephets wrote:
There is a strong left-wing Agenda in pretty much any organization funded by the state, which of course includes state-funded education. This is NOT because of the inherent truthfulness of left-wing dogma, which in the main, is infantile nonsense, it is simply a question of money. The right generally favors small government and self-reliance and that of course kills state funded jobs. The justifications of the left for huge state organizations boil down to an extended plea not to have to go out into the world and find a job in the private sector. Many of the denizens of academia are of course utterly unemployable in the real world. Does anybody think there is a demand for someone who is an expert in Gender Studies, without a state subsidy, for example? Of course not. The same can be said for countless other subjects taught across Europe and North America. There is, however, a demand for Engineers, Chemists, Biologists etc., which the First World does not produce enough of and has been importing from outside for decades now. I speak as someone with two History Degrees, who has taught at University level and works in the State Sector. When I was working at a University, a good 80% of the staff were left-wing.


Another phobe butt-hurt about having to take a gender studies class, get over it dude.



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19 Sep 2018, 3:03 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
Where does the fact that 40% of degree holders voted for the Tories and Ukip in the recent UK General Election fit in with your assertion that academics would be more inclined to be "Leftists"? Is there perhaps more "Leftist" bias in some subjects than in others? That would certainly fit with my own observations, but it would be interesting to read a study if one exists.


Universities just teach you the truth.

Generally, people are more likely to be politically progressive if they are in history or political science.

Most of the university-educated conservatives are probably in engineering or computer science.


They’d teach you the truth as they see it.



pete413
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19 Sep 2018, 3:07 pm

I'm sick of the conservatives whining about the left academia.
Go back to your blue collar slave jobs and shut up! The bible is all the learnin' you need. pfft.



sly279
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19 Sep 2018, 3:15 pm

AspE wrote:
[quote="Mudboy"
Where does this basic income come from if no one has to work? Whre do taxes come from if no one hase to work? Where does food come from if no one is growing it?

People want to work. We have an allegedly booming economy but increasing automation, and increasing income inequality. Agricultural corporations grow our food. We can afford to let that money count for something, and not just let it reinforce an elite ruling class.[/quote]

What do we do when 80% or more of the popcant work cause of automation?
Retail and fast food is automating and they make up a lot of jobs in the USA. They building lawyers ai, consoling ai, mechanics will be replaced by robots. Truck divers are going be replaced by self driven trucks. Every single job besides ceos are replaceable by technology. So we either pay everyone of those 80% income or we kill them all in a mass genocide. I bet the elite will pick the 2nd



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19 Sep 2018, 4:00 pm

Left-Wing Agenda, is it ? Right-Wingers, you say ? Well, from what I see, the whole entire system is a Bird-Brained agenda being promoted everywhere. The Left Wing and the Right Wing are just two sides of the same BIRD after all. Researching two sides of an issue ? Try researching ALL aspects of an issue. Sheesh...

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