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The_Face_of_Boo
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27 Feb 2018, 2:59 am

Ha, I was saving this thread as draft for a while.

First of all, for those who don't know me, I am atheist and ex-muslim for more than 15 years and I am very critical to the Islam religion.


First, let's watch this video:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 84198.html


It seems to me the Quran is truly an Arabized copy of the Bible (At least, the Old Testament).


And second, I was reading this, and it seems he is quite biased:

https://www.gotquestions.org/jihad-Bible.html


Quote:
But what about the violence commanded by God in the Old Testament? Is that any different? The most often-discussed episodes of violence in the Old Testament are Yahweh’s command for the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites and take possession of the land He had promised Jacob’s children. When assessing these incidents, we must understand the context in which these events took place. The Canaanites were a brutal and wicked culture that frequently engaged in incredibly decadent behavior. As Christian author Norman Geisler put it, “This was a thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty, incest, bestiality, cultic prostitution, and even child sacrifice by fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate the Israelites.”


This is hypocrisy.

It is exactly what Muslims say about the pre-islamic Pagan Arabs, that they were savages, wicked, alcoholic, sex maniacs and used to bury baby girls and had no respect for women (but some scholars speculate that women had actually a better status in pre-Islam Arabia (ie. Mohammad's first wife was actually a very wealthy Ebionite merchant)).

These are stories told by the enemies, by the victors, for example the Romans wrote stories of child sacrifice about the Carthaginians (who are Canaanites as well, "Canaanism" was actually a religion rather than a pure ethnicity) but many of these stories were disputed by scholars.

So I can't see how the above justification makes the Bible's Holy war better than Jihad?


Quote:
By ordering the destruction of the Canaanites, God enacted a form of corporate capital punishment on a people that had been deserving of God’s judgment for some time. God had given the Canaanite people over 400 years to repent (Genesis 15:13–16). When they did not, the Lord used the Israelites as an instrument of judgment on an evil and deeply depraved society. The Canaanites were not ignorant as news of God’s awesome power had reached them (Joshua 2:10–11; 9:9). Such awareness should have driven them to repentance. The example of Rahab and her family is a sure proof that the Canaanites could have avoided destruction if they had repented before Israel’s God (Joshua 2). No person had to die. God’s desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than perish (Ezekiel 18:31–32; 33:11).


He is surely not familiar with the Muslim Arab narrative, but this is exactly how also Muslims justify Mohammed's Jihad against the Pagan Arabs , Muslims believe that Arabs were descendants of Abraham (via his Ishmael son) and monotheist religion was inherited, so they believe that Arabs were originally monotheists then with time they got corrupt and polytheist.

The author isn't aware that Muslims believe in Hanif religion, which is the "Islam before Mohammad" concept, this is a very central concept in Islamic faith - the Hanif probably was an umbrella term for all monotheistic Abraham-followers before Jesus, and all non-Trinitarian including the Believing-in-Jesus-as-Man beliefs after Jesus (hence why Jews are excluded from the Hanifs term) groups which existed before Islam such as Ebionites and Nazarenes and other groups. They believe that Arabs were originally Hanifs and all prophets sent by God before Mohammad were Hanifs, , and some tried to convince Arabs for more than 400 years to go back to monotheism but most refused and did not repent. They also believe that Mohammad also tried diplomatic ways at first to convince pagan Arabs to convert but they did not "repent", hence the last choice was Jihad.


Quote:
The more difficult question, however, has to do with God’s command to kill all of the Canaanites, including the women and children (Deuteronomy 7:2–5; Joshua 6:21). In response to this, we can point out that, while the Bible records that such a command was given, it may well be that, in some cases, no women or children were actually killed. Most of the battles in Canaan would probably have involved only soldiers, and, given the chance, women and children would likely have fled. As Jeremiah 4 indicates, “At the noise of horseman and archer every city takes to flight; they enter thickets; they climb among rocks; all the cities are forsaken, and no man dwells in them” (Jeremiah 4:29).


Really? "Would likely have fled", ooohhh what a nice god, but what if they couldn't? And how is he sure about it? It still doesn't make any difference on what their God intended to let the Israelites do.


Quote:
In conclusion, there is a radical difference between the violence in the Old Testament and Islamic jihad. First, the violence prescribed by God in the Old Testament was intended for a particular time and limited to a particular people group. The conquest of Canaan had clear limits, geographically and historically, making it very different from the continuing Islamic commands regarding jihad. The conquest of Canaan set no precedent to continue the warfare beyond what God had commanded. In contrast, the Koran actually prescribes and condones military jihad in the promotion of Islam. At no time in the Bible do we see God commanding His people to kill unbelievers in the promotion of biblical faith.


Maybe because the Hebrews were a much smaller group than Arabs? Hence it wasn't possible for them to be more expansionists?

Why doesn't he simply admits that "My Bible God is as f****d up as Allah" ? Honesty is a nice thing.

Now tell me, in what way the Bible's God is better than the Quran's God? To me, they're the same.



Last edited by The_Face_of_Boo on 27 Feb 2018, 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

cberg
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27 Feb 2018, 3:28 am

I'm going to take this sideways because I just always figured they're all/each the same God no matter who contrives that basic perception. Overall monotheism gets pretty screwy but I draw a line between that & the divine, whatever it (she?) may be. :jester:

I believe in seismology rather than hell but allow for the possibility of an afterlife, lately I decided I'm a faithful atheist.


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27 Feb 2018, 4:50 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Ha, I was saving this thread as draft for a while.

First of all, for those who don't know me, I am atheist and ex-muslim for more than 15 years and I am very critical to the Islam religion.


First, let's watch this video:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 84198.html


It seems to me the Quran is truly an Arabized copy of the Bible (At least, the Old Testament).


I want to get the question in the title out of the way quickly.

I think that the Bible and the Quran are both full of hypocrisy and contradictions. Both the Bible and the Quran hold up Jesus as a great man and yet both books also revere violent men like Muhammad and Samson.

Which book is better? I think that the Bible is better because, although both books are full of violence, the Quran is more boring. I actually managed to read the entire Bible, but I never got through the Quran because it was boring me to death.

I remember when I started reading the Quran. The book contains some very repetitive descriptions of God's greatness. This goes on for several pages. I was thinking "Come on Muhammad! Say anything of substance already!"

I opened up the Quran expecting to see manly violence. I put it down feeling bored and unspeakably disappointed.

Quote:
And second, I was reading this, and it seems he is quite biased:

https://www.gotquestions.org/jihad-Bible.html


Quote:
But what about the violence commanded by God in the Old Testament? Is that any different? The most often-discussed episodes of violence in the Old Testament are Yahweh’s command for the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites and take possession of the land He had promised Jacob’s children. When assessing these incidents, we must understand the context in which these events took place. The Canaanites were a brutal and wicked culture that frequently engaged in incredibly decadent behavior. As Christian author Norman Geisler put it, “This was a thoroughly evil culture, so much so that the Bible says it nauseated God. They were into brutality, cruelty, incest, bestiality, cultic prostitution, and even child sacrifice by fire. They were an aggressive culture that wanted to annihilate the Israelites.”


LOL

The Israelites were violent too. Such hypocrisy!

Addionally, cultic prostitution is wrong because it is a from of rape. In ancient Israel, marital rape was common and women were forced into marriage.

Quote:
This is hypocrisy.

It is exactly what Muslims say about the pre-islamic Pagan Arabs, that they were savages, wicked, alcoholic, sex maniacs and used to bury baby girls and had no respect for women (but some scholars speculate that women had actually a better status in pre-Islam Arabia (ie. Mohammad's first wife was actually a very wealthy Ebionite merchant)).

These are stories told by the enemies, by the victors, for example the Romans wrote stories of child sacrifice about the Carthaginians (who are Canaanites as well, "Canaanism" was actually a religion rather than a pure ethnicity) but many of these stories were disputed by scholars.


Yep. Literate cultures lie about pre-literate cultures constantly. This was deliberate. The elites have an easier time controlling people if people have a very grim view of human nature.

Quote:
So I can't see how the above justification makes the Bible's Holy war better than Jihad?


Quote:
By ordering the destruction of the Canaanites, God enacted a form of corporate capital punishment on a people that had been deserving of God’s judgment for some time. God had given the Canaanite people over 400 years to repent (Genesis 15:13–16). When they did not, the Lord used the Israelites as an instrument of judgment on an evil and deeply depraved society. The Canaanites were not ignorant as news of God’s awesome power had reached them (Joshua 2:10–11; 9:9). Such awareness should have driven them to repentance. The example of Rahab and her family is a sure proof that the Canaanites could have avoided destruction if they had repented before Israel’s God (Joshua 2). No person had to die. God’s desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than perish (Ezekiel 18:31–32; 33:11).


Are we supposed to assume that every single Canaanite believed in the exact same thing?

Quote:
He is surely not familiar with the Muslim Arab narrative, but this is exactly how also Muslims justify Mohammed's Jihad against the Pagan Arabs , Muslims believe that Arabs were descendants of Abraham (via his Ishmael son) and monotheist religion was inherited, so they believe that Arabs were originally monotheists then with time they got corrupt and polytheist.


This is a major problem. The religions of the world have many similarities, but most religious people know nothing about any religion aside from their own. Thus, many people don't know about these similarities.

Quote:
The author isn't aware that Muslims believe in Hanif religion, which is the "Islam before Mohammad" concept, this is a very central concept in Islamic faith - the Hanif probably was an umbrella term for all monotheistic Abraham-followers before Jesus, and all non-Trinitarian including the Believing-in-Jesus-as-Man beliefs after Jesus (hence why Jews are excluded from the Hanifs term) groups which existed before Islam such as Ebionites and Nazarenes and other groups. They believe that Arabs were originally Hanifs and all prophets sent by God before Mohammad were Hanifs, , and some tried to convince Arabs for more than 400 years to go back to monotheism but most refused and did not repent. They also believe that Mohammad also tried diplomatic ways at first to convince pagan Arabs to convert but they did not "repent", hence the last choice was Jihad.


Quote:
The more difficult question, however, has to do with God’s command to kill all of the Canaanites, including the women and children (Deuteronomy 7:2–5; Joshua 6:21). In response to this, we can point out that, while the Bible records that such a command was given, it may well be that, in some cases, no women or children were actually killed. Most of the battles in Canaan would probably have involved only soldiers, and, given the chance, women and children would likely have fled. As Jeremiah 4 indicates, “At the noise of horseman and archer every city takes to flight; they enter thickets; they climb among rocks; all the cities are forsaken, and no man dwells in them” (Jeremiah 4:29).


The ancient Israelites frequently took virgin girls home as war trophies. The Bible makes this very clear.

Another Thing: Grown men can run faster than women and children. I don't see how the women and children could have gotten away.

Quote:
Really? "Would likely have fled", ooohhh what a nice god, but what if they couldn't? And how is he sure about it? It still doesn't make any difference on what their God intended to let the Israelites do.


Quote:
In conclusion, there is a radical difference between the violence in the Old Testament and Islamic jihad. First, the violence prescribed by God in the Old Testament was intended for a particular time and limited to a particular people group. The conquest of Canaan had clear limits, geographically and historically, making it very different from the continuing Islamic commands regarding jihad. The conquest of Canaan set no precedent to continue the warfare beyond what God had commanded. In contrast, the Koran actually prescribes and condones military jihad in the promotion of Islam. At no time in the Bible do we see God commanding His people to kill unbelievers in the promotion of biblical faith.


Maybe because the Hebrews were a much smaller group than Arabs? Hence it wasn't possible for them to be more expansionists?

Why doesn't he simply admits that "My Bible God is as f****d up as Allah" ? Honesty is a nice thing.

Now tell me, in what way the Bible's God is better than the Quran's God? To me, they're the same.


I already covered this. The God of the Bible gets to the point and doesn't waste my time.

The Bible and the Quran both contain violence, but the Quran also contains pages and pages of meaningless wind as padding.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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27 Feb 2018, 6:21 am

^ A reason why the Quran is more boring is because it is said that it was spread orally in form of recitations, and written on scattered documents, then years later a caliph compiled them all in one book. It is a known historical fact, even in Islamic literature, that some parts were removed due to lack of consensus about them between the guys in charge at the time.

According to most Muslims, Mohammad was illiterate, however this is disputed, the illiteracy story of Mohammad became popular because it "proves" that the Quran really came from god and not Mohammad invented.

The reason why Mohammad was associated to illiteracy is because he was called "Ummi" or "Prophet of Ummis" in some verse, and in modern arabic the word Ummi means illiterate.

However some scholars say that Ummis actually meant Pagan people in old Arabic at the time, and later been associated with illiteracy due to hatred toward pagans.



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27 Feb 2018, 1:12 pm

I've read both.Each has its high and low points.Some very beautiful verse,some boring,some just awful.
Nothing is as boring as Numbers.


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27 Feb 2018, 1:17 pm

From My understanding Muslims believe the Quran is the perfect word of God whereas Christians believe the Bible was inspired by God which has to be the biggest loophole in history. The Anglican church actually has gay priests who are in civil partnerships essentially in the Modern world being Christian is essentially meaningless.



The_Face_of_Boo
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27 Feb 2018, 4:49 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
From My understanding Muslims believe the Quran is the perfect word of God whereas Christians believe the Bible was inspired by God which has to be the biggest loophole in history. The Anglican church actually has gay priests who are in civil partnerships essentially in the Modern world being Christian is essentially meaningless.


There's no doubt that the heads of Christianity (ie. the Vatican, COE, major churches...etc) evolved to better modern standards than Islam's religious heads, but this isn't what the thread about.



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27 Feb 2018, 5:55 pm

Daniel89 wrote:
From My understanding Muslims believe the Quran is the perfect word of God whereas Christians believe the Bible was inspired by God which has to be the biggest loophole in history. The Anglican church actually has gay priests who are in civil partnerships essentially in the Modern world being Christian is essentially meaningless.

The Christians will default to saying the Bible is the perfect word of God and only resort to saying it was merely inspired by God after you point out some of the more ridiculous parts, then 5 minutes later they'll go back to saying it's God's word.

This is one of the best examples of Orwellian doublethink I've ever seen.


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27 Feb 2018, 5:58 pm

The Bible has all this stuff about killing women and children yet some brainwashed thugs still say we need the Bible in schools to teach the kids "morality".

How is giving them such a violent book supposed to make the students less violent?


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27 Feb 2018, 10:30 pm

Face of Boo, congratulations on surviving as an apostate.

My understanding is that the koran is incomplete without the sira (mohammed’s biography) and hadith (sayings of mohammed). Both the old testament and the koran called for despicable acts. But I find the koran worse than the old testament

The old testament had limits on the locations and time frame of the Jewish violent expansion. Most of the old testament is concerned with the behavior and treatment of the jewish people.

I found the opposite is found in the three books of islam. They mandate continually terrorizing, subjugating, and killing people who belong to other religions, until islam dominates the entire world. Most of the koran is concerned with the behavior and treatment of non-muslims. Also, the koran calls for treachery against non muslims.


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27 Feb 2018, 10:52 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:
The Bible has all this stuff about killing women and children yet some brainwashed thugs still say we need the Bible in schools to teach the kids "morality".

How is giving them such a violent book supposed to make the students less violent?


We are all born with a sense of good and evil. Unfortunately, this sense is corrupted by elitist propaganda.

Overall, we need to spend less time teaching kids about the difference between good and evil, and instead focus on teaching kids the difference between true and untrue.


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27 Feb 2018, 11:23 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
We are all born with a sense of good and evil. Unfortunately, this sense is corrupted by elitist propaganda.

Overall, we need to spend less time teaching kids about the difference between good and evil, and instead focus on teaching kids the difference between true and untrue.

I disagree. We tend to falsely assign our own values on other cultures. My extensive travels showed me different cultures have different ideas of what is good and what is evil. I was shocked to discover the concept of the "golden rule" is rejected in many places. Instead, "might makes right" is the accepted behavior. In several cultures, theft, rape, and destruction are acceptable. Failure to perform these acts is seen as weakness.


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28 Feb 2018, 2:14 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
We are all born with a sense of good and evil. Unfortunately, this sense is corrupted by elitist propaganda.

No we're all born with a sense of us vs them. This is used be elitists but it wasn't created by elitists.

The Bible and the Quran might be similar but that didn't stop the Crusades. Protestants and Catholics might be similar but that didn't stop the Spanish Inquisition.


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28 Feb 2018, 2:17 am

Misslizard wrote:
I've read both.Each has its high and low points.Some very beautiful verse,some boring,some just awful.
Nothing is as boring as Numbers.


Is Numbers the part of the bible with 100's of names listed...lol if so I skipped quite a bit of that one, but I did read the vast majority of the bible and there is certainly some disturbing stuff in there.



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28 Feb 2018, 2:36 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
No we're all born with a sense of us vs them. This is used be elitists but it wasn't created by elitists.

The Bible and the Quran might be similar but that didn't stop the Crusades. Protestants and Catholics might be similar but that didn't stop the Spanish Inquisition.


Most Christians who passionately hate Islam are unaware of the similarities between the two religions. Some goes for Muslims who passionately hate Christianity.

Propaganda plays a large role in this. During the Middle Ages, the European clergy regarded Islam as a separate branch of Christianity. Their private written documents make this very clear ... but they told the illiterate masses a completely different story. The European masses were taught that Islam was a pagan religion devoted to bestiality and goat worship.


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