What if the Soviet Union/USSR joined the Axis Powers in WW2?

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PurplePlumz
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04 Mar 2018, 3:36 pm

I'm a new member, so I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this.
With that being said, I'm very interested in alternate history and "what if" questions. There's one question like this I find quite intriguing:
What if the Soviet Union/USSR had joined the Axis Powers during World War 2?
I believe that Molotov had sent an offer to join the Axis Powers on November 25th, 1940 during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. It proposed splitting the world up for the four powers, and increasing economic assistance. Stalin had given them surprisingly light terms:

-that German troops depart Finland in exchange for a Soviet guarantee of continued nickel and wood shipments and peace with Finland;
-a mutual assistance pact be signed with Bulgaria in the next few months permitting Soviet bases
-The center of Soviet territorial domination would be south of Baku and Batumi (ports in modern Azerbaijan and Georgia, south of which are Iraq and Iran)
-Japanese renunciation of rights to northern Sakhalin oil and coal concessions in exchange for appropriate compensation
-Affirms that the Soviet-Bulgaria mutual assistance treaty was a political necessity.

So let's just assume here that the Soviet Union/USSR had joined the Axis Powers and was bent on defeating the Allied Powers.
What would have happened? Would the Axis Powers have won? Would the Allied Powers have still won? Would it be a stalemate? What would have been the aftermath?

Anyone who's interested can discuss here.

(btw I'm really sorry for possible grammatical errors; I'm an expat)



Kiprobalhato
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04 Mar 2018, 3:53 pm

even if the germans and soviets had stayed on the same side for as long as it was necessary to defeat the allies, there's no guarantee of continued peace between them. hitlers plans clearly outlined a desire to take land around belarus, western russia and other slavic lands and it was not going to go without a fight, i think barbarossa or any operation like it was inevitable. also the USSR depended heavily on supplies from the US so without that they would be at an ever greater disadvantage if hitler invaded.

it's more likely the axis would have won in europe, given that most of germany's forces were in the east at any given point after 1941. that frees up more manpower to repel anything in the south and west. i think if there's any timeline where operation sea lion would have been carried out, it's one where germany never had to divert the resources to invade the USSR.

i don't know about the pacific theater.


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c0r
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04 Mar 2018, 4:10 pm

I've been a fan of alternate history since high school.

Don't think in what ifs that's a losing strategy in life.

But I'll play the alternate historian for a second and say hitler was influenced by a "race scientist" named hans gunther who rated the european races and at the lowest level was the "east baltoids" or russians as hitler believed so it would be impossible to convince a mad man like hitler to make peace.

Plus many on the axis side didn't want to align with hitler necessarily and the main focus of joining the axis powers was to fight communism which was a real threat to europe.

If you lived in Berlin in 1945 you probably were praying the Americans would capture the city and not the Soviets.



PurplePlumz
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04 Mar 2018, 4:29 pm

I'm in agreement with that for the most part. I do think that the Germans and Soviets would have gotten into conflict in the aftermath of it.
But I thought it would have been interesting mostly because of the way that the Soviets had actually benefited the Germans during the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. It was a non-aggressive pact, but it came with the secret provision that Eastern Europe would be split up according to Soviet and German interests.

Image

^ this gave western Poland to Germany, and Finland, the Baltic States, some of Romania, and eastern Poland to the U.S.S.R.

Also, the Soviets and Germans agreed to provide each other with economic assistance, with the Germans sending goods to the Soviets, and the Soviets sending raw materials such as grain and oil back(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi%E2%8 ... E2%80%9341)). This greatly helped the war effort for Germany.

I also don't think that the terms Stalin had given were necessarily deal-breakers for Hitler.

With that being said, I'm more thinking of it in a very slightly different perspective; Hitler could be convinced to wait it out in his war against the Soviet Union, at least until the Western Allies were defeated or reached a truce of some sort. Then, once he won, he could lead his war against the Soviet Union. I'm thinking of this as more of a Hitler that's concerned with a strategic outlook rather than jumping straight to desires that couldn't have happened in the first place.

I personally think that a Nazi-Soviet alliance would have been very bad for Britain, as one advantage that Britain had over Germany was a large range of colonies to grab resources from, while Germany was relatively resource starved. This is because Germany would receive more grain and oil than in the real war. Britain’s position in the Middle-East wouldn't have lasted for a long time. Britain’s position in the Middle-East would have been gone in no time. The Soviets would then take Persia, Iraq, and the rest of the Middle-East up to the Suez (no more oil shortage for the Axis from that point on-wards). The British would be forced to pull out of Egypt and Greece due to the closing of the Suez canal. Italy would also be able to occupy Egypt and link up with Italian troops in Ethiopia that are already there. Germany would forcefully occupy Vichy-France's Northern African territory. The U.K. would surrender after Spain gives Axis transit rights to Spanish-Morocco and Allies lose possession of both its Middle-East and North African possessions. Soviets would also enter the Atlantic to put pressure on Allied shipping, while Germany would very heavily increase U-Boat production and research of missiles. The U.K. is forced to come to peace with the Axis, losing its Middle Eastern possessions and North African possessions.

I think Japan, Italy and Germany would then break their alliance with the Soviets, and that would have started a large war. Soviets hold their lines at Manchuria, as they are superior in training and technology to the Japanese. The Soviets support the puppet state of Second East Turkestan Republic against Japan. The Germans in the West divide European Russia after occupying it, which would have been successful due to a lack of lend-lease to the U.S.S.R. and the Japanese pressure in the Far East. The lack of manpower becomes very clear as they reach the Urals, with large partisan activity and unrest disturbing their rear. At that point, they decide to proceed no further, and continuous border conflicts with the Soviets follow, who haven’t yet collapsed due to the industry transfers to Siberia and the power of Stalin.

But then again, this is just my theory. I'm just young, and pretty stupid.

But if the USSR and Germany did decide to agree on allying full-out (which would have been very unlikely in the first place), it would have been an Axis victory anyway IMO.
-Germany shifts its focus on Great Britain and United States.
-USSR becomes USFR.
-Axis has the strongest land army ever known.
-Germany doesn’t have to waste their time fighting a two-front war.
-Japan leaves Axis.
-Luftwaffe wins the Battle of Britain.
-Axis enter Atlantic to prevent Allied shipping.
-Soviets take Iraq and ensure that Axis isn’t short of oil.
-Soviets then also take Persia and the rest of the Middle East up until the Suez Canal.
-Middle East becomes Axis territory and U.K. starts to become starved of resources.
-Italy takes Egypt and manages to colonise up until Ethiopia.
-Axis defeats Allies in fight in Africa.
-Africa stays in Axis hands.
-Allied Invasion of Sicily ends in failure.
-Western Front can’t be opened due to the amount of enemies surrounding them as a result of Germany not having to fight two fronts.
-U.K. surrenders.
-Vast majority of Mainland Europe stays as Axis territory.
-British Isles becomes Axis territory.
-Either US becomes colonised, resulting in the Axis victory, or the war ends in a stalemate.

Also, why and/or how exactly are "what ifs" a "losing strategy in life"? Just asking, really. My English isn't that good.



Last edited by PurplePlumz on 04 Mar 2018, 6:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

c0r
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04 Mar 2018, 6:20 pm

I never knew Hitler pretended to support the russians in the winter war or the first war between russia and the soviets. Anyways it all comes down to Hitler, you have to watch "circle of evil" on netflix. It's about Hitler's inner circle which obviously influenced his view on the world. He was surrounded by drunk lunatics either recovering from lost pride looking for scapegoats as they sat around in the bars.

Some like Himmler or Dietrich were into bizarre occult beliefs but Hitler's world view or
Weltanschauung by pseudo racial scientists other anti-semitic veterans. He did not have the common sense or humbleness to make peace with Russia.

On top of that his speeches were so racist it actually united the fractured Soviet Union to bond together as ALL russians regardless of ethnicity (except volga germans) were inferior and would be killed if Hitler had his way.

Thinking about what could have happened is a loser mentality in the sense it solves nothing and only gives way to negative thoughts. Alternate history on the other hand is just fun (sometimes hard fiction.)

Check out The Man in the High Castle on amazon prime. It's about what "would" have happened if the nazis and japan occupied the US. If you like blade runner the book its based on is from the same author who wrote the book thats based on blade runner.



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05 Mar 2018, 2:36 am

Some sort of nuclear war eventually.


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c0r
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05 Mar 2018, 10:59 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Some sort of nuclear war eventually.

I agree but nuclear wars aren’t as fun for the armchair historian same reason artillery isn’t exactly fun to think about. Medieval battles had less siege weapons like trebuchets and more looking your opponent in the eye as you use your years of sword spear axe training to defeat him. Too bad theirs no film footage of medieval battles history channel reenactments like the Vikings are so inaccurate only decent shows are the ones with film footage like ww2 dogfights.



Dylanperr
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22 Jun 2019, 4:50 pm

I don't think that is even possible because the Germans wanted Western Russia as a homeland for a so called superior Germanic Race and to achieve that they would ethnically cleanse the Slavic peoples that already live there.



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23 Jun 2019, 9:47 am

Denis Istomin might be playing for Germany on the same team as Sascha Zverev, instead of for Uzbekistan.



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23 Jun 2019, 12:07 pm

There was talk at the time of a "grand Eurasian alliance" between the Germany, Russia, and Japan. But it didn't materalialize.

In the short run it would have been disasterous for the allies.

Hitler would have turned his back on the east and focused his war effort on the west. Instead of having two thirds of his army fighting on the east he would have thrown it west and southward. Probably would have attacked the middle east. Maybe seizing the Suez Canal, and much of the oil in Iraq.

Germany and Japan would not have been isolated from each other the way they were in the actual war, and could trade ideas and hard goods with ease the way that Britain and the USA were able to by using the soviet land mass as an avenue of communication. For example Britain invented radar, and just gave it to the US. Japan and Germany had to reinvent radar on their own not only separately from the allies, but also separately from each other because there were no trade routes on either land or sea to connect the two main axis powers. If the soviets had joined the axis powers Russia would have been that missing conduit connecting all three with technological innovations, supplies, and raw materials.

The Japanese war in the Pacific would be similar to the actual war. An attack on Pearl Harbor, and the Japanese seizing huge areas of the Pacific. However Japan would have to lay off of continued aggression against China because Mao's guerrillas would have been nominal allies of Japan (instead of enemies) because they were allied to the Soviets. ANd that would have been just one fault line in this Eurasian alliance that would probably have widened.

Hitler would sieze the Middle east. He could then send German and Italian warships through the suez canal to coordinate with the Japanese navy attacking from the east to encircle India and chop up the whole British empire into mincemeat.

But eventually there would be friction between Russia and Germany, and between Russia and Japan. And eventually back stabbing would have spoiled the whole thing.

So this alliance would have been successful until it finally fell apart.