Free Speech and the Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions of Israel

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DarthMetaKnight
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18 Mar 2018, 2:59 pm

JohnPowell wrote:


Well played John! A+

In my opinion, neo-Zionism is similar to anti-Semitism. Neo-Zionists insist that Judaism is a monolithic bloc, and, therefore, insist that any opposition to Zionism is as bad as another Holocaust.

Meanwhile, anti-Semites insist that all Jews are bad and that the only way to stop Zionism is with another Holocaust.

Saying "Anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism!" is like saying "Anyone who disagrees with King Salman is an Islamophobe!"

We need to see the internal divisions within Islam and Judaism, just as we see the internal disagreements within Christianity.


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18 Mar 2018, 3:12 pm

People need to stop being scared to criticise Israel and their lobby groups. Their lobby groups try to always push a 'new antisemitism' to silence people who criticise Israel.


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19 Mar 2018, 8:43 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Because it's religious-cultural, Protestantism is the dominant faith (and even culturally not just religiously) in US Protestant churches, especially the evangelical churches which are way more Old Testament focused than Catholics, have a strong faith that Israel is a holy country for the Jews and justify Zionism - that's why it is a special country for them and Zionism for them is a rightful thing.

I, pretty much, agree with this. This was the way I was raised (my great-grandfather and grandfather were Southern Baptist preachers), and have chosen to still believe this, in adulthood. I believe they're fighting the same fight they started (over ownership of land) when Moses brought the Jewish people back from wandering in the desert for 40 years.

Also, I haven't read the article, or all of this thread, yet, but I just wanted to add: What's the problem with the U.S. recognizing Jerusalem as the capital? If Israel wants that to be their capital, who are we to say they can't / shouldn't? IMO, it's none of our friggin' business which they want to call the capital, and we should respect another country's wishes----and, if yet another country doesn't like it, they can get over themselves!!


Yup, but what if you learn that your Bible is....well...got it wrong? We were all raised to believe in Santa Clause as kids.

Your bible says that the Hebrews exterminated ALL Canaanites during the conquest of Canaan.

The Israelis and the pro-Israel Protestants always claimed that Lebanese and Palestinian are newcomer "Arabs" - that we were descended from invaders who invaded the Jewish land long ago, therefore the Jews are the native people.

How many times you heard pro-Zionism people claiming that Palestinians were "Jordanian arabs" with no scientific proof? I heard it million of times.

A lie that had been being promoted for so long.

However, science proved that your Bible got it so wrong in that regard - thanks to a formidable genetic study:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/27/scie ... banon.html

http://www.sanger.ac.uk/news/view/prese ... y-suggests


Quote:
The team discovered that more than 90 per cent of present-day Lebanese ancestry is likely to be from the Canaanites, with an additional small proportion of ancestry coming from a different Eurasian population. Researchers estimate that new Eurasian people mixed with the Canaanite population about 2,200 to 3,800 years ago at a time when there were many conquests of the region from outside.


Quote:
“For the first time we have genetic evidence for substantial continuity in the region, from the Bronze Age Canaanite population through to the present day. These results agree with the continuity seen by archaeologists. Collaborations between archaeologists and geneticists greatly enrich both fields of study and can answer questions about ancestry in ways that experts in neither field can answer alone.”


Quote:
Dr. Tyler-Smith and an international team of geneticists and archaeologists recovered ancient DNA from bones belonging to five Canaanites retrieved from an excavation site in Sidon, Lebanon, that were 3,650 to 3,750 years old. The team then compared the ancient DNA with the genomes of 99 living people from Lebanon that the group had sequenced. It found that the modern Lebanese people shared about 93 percent of their ancestry with the Bronze Age Sidon samples.

So Lebanese are not Arabs genetically, they're descended from Canaanites who converted and 'Syriacized' and later got Arabized (First as Christian Syriacs, then as Arabic speaking Muslims and Christians) .

Oh no! That means....the Canaanites weren't exterminated at all! Science proved that your Bible story is a LIE! They are still here and one of them is replying you right now.

So you see, Canaanites ' descendants still live in this land, and even the Bible admits that we are the native people before the Hebrews.

Quote:
What's the problem with the U.S. recognizing Jerusalem as the capital? If Israel wants that to be their capital, who are we to say they can't / shouldn't?


The problem is that 90% of the rest of the world don't recognize it, 128 out of 193 countries; what about the Palestinians? You clearly don't believe they have the right to exist there.



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21 Mar 2018, 7:54 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Yup, but what if you learn that your Bible is....well...got it wrong? We were all raised to believe in Santa Clause as kids.

Your bible says that the Hebrews exterminated ALL Canaanites during the conquest of Canaan.

The Israelis and the pro-Israel Protestants always claimed that Lebanese and Palestinian are newcomer "Arabs" - that we were descended from invaders who invaded the Jewish land long ago, therefore the Jews are the native people.

How many times you heard pro-Zionism people claiming that Palestinians were "Jordanian arabs" with no scientific proof? I heard it million of times.

A lie that had been being promoted for so long.

However, science proved that your Bible got it so wrong in that regard - thanks to a formidable genetic study:

So Lebanese are not Arabs genetically, they're descended from Canaanites who converted and 'Syriacized' and later got Arabized (First as Christian Syriacs, then as Arabic speaking Muslims and Christians) .

Oh no! That means....the Canaanites weren't exterminated at all! Science proved that your Bible story is a LIE! They are still here and one of them is replying you right now.

So you see, Canaanites ' descendants still live in this land, and even the Bible admits that we are the native people before the Hebrews.

Well, firstly, I'm not one who takes the Bible totally literally, and I don't believe the Bible is a lie (that seems to imply vicious intent); and I believe that it's quite possible that when King James had the Bible translated, that some passages / chapters may have been intentionally left-out, to control the masses, or whatever----but, then, that's why I have a-hundred-and-one (not literal) Bible study books (I have a book all about a chapter that was supposedly written by Mary Magdalene).

Also, I don't know that the Bible got everything ALL wrong. I feel that it is an overall account of events----but, I also know that if 100 people witnessed an event, one might get 100 different accounts (that, probably, the accounts will, generally, be the same, but specifics might vastly differ).

I consider my own heritage (Native American). There was the Trail of Tears----but, not ALL Cherokees (which I am) walked to Oklahoma. They hid in the hills, and elsewhere, and descendants are still on this side of the country. I imagine the same could be possible with the Canaanites.

Maybe a good way to handle it, would be with DNA tests (as the Cherokees and other Native American tribes are doing / have done), and those who it is proven are Canaanites, can stay----and others would have to go. The other point I was trying to make, though, is that I don't feel it should be our, or any other country's decision, to say who gets to stay, and who needs to go.

Secondly, though I have great respect and appreciation for science, science can and HAS gotten things wrong, many times over----I mean, Pluto used to be a planet, right? (rhetorical)

You're quite right that the Bible says that that land belonged to the Canaanites, FIRST, and that the Jewish people drove them out----I had forgotten that part----but, the Bible also says that God, Himself, promised that land to his chosen people (the Jewish people); regardless, again, it is not for me, personally, to decide----nor, IMO, the U.S.


The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
What's the problem with the U.S. recognizing Jerusalem as the capital? If Israel wants that to be their capital, who are we to say they can't / shouldn't?

The problem is that 90% of the rest of the world don't recognize it, 128 out of 193 countries; what about the Palestinians? You clearly don't believe they have the right to exist there.

AFAIC, it doesn't matter what the rest of the world thinks we, the U.S., should do, or what the rest of the world thinks should be the capital----IMO, it's not anybody else's business to decide, except for those directly involved. I certainly wouldn't want any other country telling US what to do----and, besides, I heard several other countries were rethinking their position, as to which city to recognize as the capital, since the U.S.'s stance has changed.




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21 Mar 2018, 11:16 am

JohnPowell wrote:
People need to stop being scared to criticise Israel and their lobby groups. Their lobby groups try to always push a 'new antisemitism' to silence people who criticise Israel.


"New anti-Semitism" isn't even a real thing.

Most actual anti-Semites will just repeat the same old crap about how the Jews killed Jesus. There's nothing new about it.

I've noticed that most neo-Zionists just behave and dress like American macho military men. They shave. They show off their big guns. They dress in military gear. This is because Israel is just an extension of Western military power.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of hardcore Jews (with beards, Jewish hats and everything) who hate Israel.

You might as well classify any criticism of Zimbabwe as "new white supremacy".


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21 Mar 2018, 11:31 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
AFAIC, it doesn't matter what the rest of the world thinks we, the U.S., should do, or what the rest of the world thinks should be the capital----IMO, it's not anybody else's business to decide, except for those directly involved.


The Palestinians are directly involved.

America is also directly involved because Israel relies on handouts from US taxpayers.

Quote:
I certainly wouldn't want any other country telling US what to do----and, besides, I heard several other countries were rethinking their position, as to which city to recognize as the capital, since the U.S.'s stance has changed.


Other countries constantly tell the US what to do because the US constantly tells other countries what to do. America has a long history of this.

"Damn it Vietnam! Stop being communist!"
"Damn it Iraq! Give us your oil!"
"Damn it Chile! Stop being democratic!"

Addionally, billionaires meddle in the elections of other countries all the time. For example, Western billionaires (many, but not all of them are American) meddle in African elections all the time. This is why most African leaders are far-right hyper-capitalists, even though the average African wants a progressive alternative.

We live in an interconnected world. Get used to it. The world that you want can never exist. There can never be a world in which countries never influence one another. That's unrealistic.


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21 Mar 2018, 3:38 pm

Overall, I think that most Zionists have an overly-simplistic view of history. History throws mud in the face of the Zionist historical narrative again and again.

Fundamentalist Christians will often claim that God wants Israel to be a Jewish homeland, though this is very new idea in Christendom. For a long time, Israel was controlled by the Byzantines, who were devout Christians. They allowed Jews to coexist with them, but they still they still technically controlled the Holy Land. When the Holy Land was taken by the Islamic Caliphate, the Crusades were fought not because Europeans wanted to give the Holy Land to the Jews, but because the Christians wanted to take the Holy Land for themselves.

Additionally, during the Middle Ages, Jews suffered more persecution in Europe than in the Middle East. Throughout the Middle Ages and the early modern era, there were plenty of Jews living in Muslim-controlled Israel and the Muslims leaders were fine with this.

When the modern State of Israel was established, there were already Jews living in the area before the European Jews showed up. The Middle Eastern Jews had been peacefully coexisting with Muslims for centuries. The Zionists had no respect whatsoever for the Jews who were already living in the Palestine region. Today, the Israeli government continues to discriminate against the descendants of Palestinian Jews because European-style Judaism is seen as ideal in modern Israel.

In other words, "Zionist history" takes the history of Jews in the Islamic world and erases it.

Future generations will see the State of Israel in much the same way we see the Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire was a totally fake country. It wasn't holy, it wasn't Roman and it wasn't an empire. The State of Israel is similar in that it uses excessively simplistic pseudohistory to justify its existence and expansion.

By the way, most of Israel's founders were secular Jews who knew very little about the Torah, and saw Jews as a race. One of the people who popularized Zionism in America was Irving Kristol, who argued that the biggest threat to the Jews was intermarriage.

"The danger facing American Jews today is not that Christians want to persecute them but that Christians want to marry them."
- Irving Kristol

It's pretty clear to me that Zionism is grounded in the belief that Jews are a race and that most anti-Zionist Jews instead see Judaism as a religion which transcends racial boundaries.


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21 Mar 2018, 4:29 pm

This is what real Judaism looks like.
VVV


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21 Mar 2018, 8:00 pm

Mikah wrote:

I have another theory. There is a lot of rhetoric calling Israel the last European colony, and this makes a certain amount of sense. It's dominated by the European Ashkenazi. Israel may be being singled out not because the Left has suddenly absorbed the protocols of the Elders of Zion, but because the "bad guys" are suspiciously white and this makes them valid targets. That is, BDS is not driven by anti-Jew racism, but anti-White racism.This only makes sense though, if you can accept the possible existence of an anti-White zeitgeist in Western politics, which many on the Left think doesn't exist. That tendency to forgive all sins non-White and exacerbate all sins committed by evil Whitey. These are often the same George Galloway types who "helped" Rhodesia and South Africa out of White rule and couldn't care less about the brutal rape and persecution of Whites there now. They who care nothing about what China is up to in Africa now, often exploiting African people and resources much more ruthlessly than Europeans ever did. Just a theory.


I have no opinion on the matter... :shrug:
But I like the way you think...
Despite you being a theist... :mrgreen:


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21 Mar 2018, 8:22 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
People need to stop being scared to criticise Israel and their lobby groups. Their lobby groups try to always push a 'new antisemitism' to silence people who criticise Israel.


Yep...
There is a lot of that around...
And it is very, very effective in inhibiting free speech...


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22 Mar 2018, 3:08 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
People need to stop being scared to criticise Israel and their lobby groups. Their lobby groups try to always push a 'new antisemitism' to silence people who criticise Israel.


"New anti-Semitism" isn't even a real thing.

Most actual anti-Semites will just repeat the same old crap about how the Jews killed Jesus. There's nothing new about it.

I've noticed that most neo-Zionists just behave and dress like American macho military men. They shave. They show off their big guns. They dress in military gear. This is because Israel is just an extension of Western military power.

Meanwhile, there are plenty of hardcore Jews (with beards, Jewish hats and everything) who hate Israel.

You might as well classify any criticism of Zimbabwe as "new white supremacy".


Yep.


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23 Mar 2018, 3:32 am

Quote:
Maybe a good way to handle it, would be with DNA tests (as the Cherokees and other Native American tribes are doing / have done), and those who it is proven are Canaanites, can stay----and others would have to go. The other point I was trying to make, though, is that I don't feel it should be our, or any other country's decision, to say who gets to stay, and who needs to go.



If we go that route, we would win, it had already proven that over 90% of Lebanese share a very close genetic makeup to the buried Canaanites found in Sidon, surely much closer than Israelis originated from Europe.

Israelis btw were so uncomfortable about this study to the point their press made up misleading titles. https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-canaa ... o-lebanon/


"DISPROVING THE BIBLICAL ACCOUNT?
The Canaanites weren’t annihilated, they just ‘moved’ to Lebanon"

Which is a very wrong title on purpose in order to deny Palestinian's Canaanite heritage even before conducting a such large scale genetic study on Palestinians (that if Israel even allows it), the study doesn't talk about a 'mass migration' of Canaanites from south to north; the oldest Phoenician city is actually in the north of Lebanon called Byblos, then Sidon and then Tyre , and they exist to this day...this had been confirmed many times by all the respectful archaeologists who studies this civilization, our ancient forefathers were moving from north Lebanon to Palestine, not the other way around. There's no archeological study showing mass migration from Palestine to Lebanon.


Quote:
Secondly, though I have great respect and appreciation for science, science can and HAS gotten things wrong, many times over----I mean, Pluto used to be a planet, right? (rhetorical)


Pluto being a planet or not was a matter of what defines a planet, but I don't think there's a controversy in what defines a genetic lineage, the Y chromosome lineage is quite straightforward. Grandfather's Y goes to father, and father's Y goes to son ..... I don't think there's any definition dispute on that.


Quote:
You're quite right that the Bible says that that land belonged to the Canaanites, FIRST, and that the Jewish people drove them out----I had forgotten that part----but, the Bible also says that God, Himself, promised that land to his chosen people (the Jewish people); regardless, again, it is not for me, personally, to decide----nor, IMO, the U.S
.

Let me be clear on that:
The descendants Canaanites, don't believe in your stupid Yahweh's "promise" - they are not obliged to respect your bible that promotes their total extermination. Your "God" himself can kiss our asses, and his "Promise", wherever is written, is to be used as toilet paper.



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24 Mar 2018, 9:17 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Let me be clear on that:
The descendants Canaanites, don't believe in your stupid Yahweh's "promise" - they are not obliged to respect your bible that promotes their total extermination. Your "God" himself can kiss our asses, and his "Promise", wherever is written, is to be used as toilet paper.

Welp, one sure way to get people to stop listening to your plight, is to call their God stupid, and that you'd like to use their religious resource book, as toilet paper----I can imagine this is one of the many things that keeps the war, ongoing----so, I leave this part of the conversation, with you, here.




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24 Mar 2018, 1:51 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Let me be clear on that:
The descendants Canaanites, don't believe in your stupid Yahweh's "promise" - they are not obliged to respect your bible that promotes their total extermination. Your "God" himself can kiss our asses, and his "Promise", wherever is written, is to be used as toilet paper.

Welp, one sure way to get people to stop listening to your plight, is to call their God stupid, and that you'd like to use their religious resource book, as toilet paper----



Why should I respect and love a "God" or a "holy book" - who promoted for the ethnic cleansing of my own ethnicity
?

Yes, if this "God" hated us that much then we should hate him - this God is stupid and filthy.

And why we should accept the Promise Land thing if this 'God' is so against our very existence on this land?


Quote:
I can imagine this is one of the many things that keeps the war, ongoing----so, I leave this part of the conversation, with you, here.[/b]



No no no no no no ....if all people here were like me who refuse Religion totally we would be in total peace, what made the war ongoing here are the religious people LIKE YOU, who believe blindly in religion, you just admitted that Israel's actions/foundation are justified because it's God's will and it's because it's a holy nation in your eyes, what makes your views different from the ISIS who believe in Caliphate? Eh, and it's so ironic that you're a native American, you out of all people whom your ancestors suffered the worst ethnic cleansing in human history.

I do not want to speak with you any further, honestly, these ultra-christian views of yours disgust me.

And yes, I have zero respect for your "God', for your "Yahweh" and for your Torah/Bible; and you can't oblige me to respect them.

PS: Just FYI, I am not Muslim either, the Qur'an is as stupid, and it comes directly from that stupid Bible too.