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DarthMetaKnight
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16 Apr 2018, 10:06 pm

Hi all. I'm making this thread because I have more questions regarding religion that should be answered.

Christians have told me "You will only go to heaven if you believe in God." In response, I asked them "What about Jews? Do they go to heaven?" In response, they told me "Yes, Jews also go to heaven because their God is the same as our God."

This raises so many questions. After all, if the Jewish God is the same God as the Christian God then the Muslim God is clearly the same God too. After all, Judaism had no solid dogma regarding the nature of Jesus (because it predates that era) whereas Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Christ as an article of faith.

As a result, different Jews have different attitudes towards Jesus that range from respect to hatred. So ... will a Jew go to Hell for hating Jesus and Christianity? Some of them do.

From what I can gather, the belief that Jews can go to the Christian heaven is a very modern concept. During the Middle Ages, most Christian authorities hated Judaism. As a result, many Jews converted to Christianity and were culturally assimilated into European culture. The Jews who refused to convert were subject to discrimination. The modern alliance between Christianity and Judaism is clearly a very modern thing that was created to reinforce Zionism. In other words, people often make assumptions regarding the religions of the world based on modern political alliances.

... and then we have all of these other religions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religions

As you can see from this article, there are many religions which worship "the same God" as Christians and Jews.

We also have to take Mormons into account ... and cults such as the Family International. How much can you change the nature of God before he becomes a different deity? There is clearly a spectrum here. Where is the cutoff point?

Also, when Christians are asked "Why is Christianity the best religion?" they will usually say "Christianity is a religion of peace." This raises further questions. For example, Jainism is one of the least violent religions in history. So ... is there any room in God's kingdom for Jains?

Additionally, the concept of "salvation by faith alone" makes little sense to me. This implies that a brutal theocrat has a better chance of salvation than a peaceful secularist.

None of this makes any sense to me. Discuss.


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magz
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17 Apr 2018, 2:20 am

TARDIGRADES!
Image
They are the only ones that go to heaven! (Because conditions in the heaven are so extreme that no other organism would survive)


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TheSpectrum
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18 Apr 2018, 12:04 pm

Everyone goes to their own personal heaven and hell, in their mind...briefly before they perish.
After that, who knows.


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Pepe
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18 Apr 2018, 12:36 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
So ... will a Jew go to Hell for hating Jesus and Christianity? Some of them do.


According to Howard Wolowitz, Jews don't believe in hell... :wink:

Big bang theory - Jews dont have hell...
They have acid reflux...

https://youtu.be/S5Ru0dRvG0A


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Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


VIDEODROME
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18 Apr 2018, 1:12 pm



Hyeokgeose
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18 Apr 2018, 2:55 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Hi all. I'm making this thread because I have more questions regarding religion that should be answered.

Christians have told me "You will only go to heaven if you believe in God." In response, I asked them "What about Jews? Do they go to heaven?" In response, they told me "Yes, Jews also go to heaven because their God is the same as our God."



That is, unfortunately, incorrect. I think it's easy to say that most Christians are wrong about Heaven, and as a skeptic of almost everything, i may be wrong; but, what I found while reading Revelations, some time back, is that humans don't go to Heaven. After Judgement Day, those who pass Judgement will eventually go to a second Earth, as there will be a new Heaven and new Earth. If I read correctly, God will be there on the new Earth.

Also, when we die, we are 'asleep', or rather dead, until the arrival of Christ to resurrect us for Judgement.

Of course, I'm not a Catholic. Sola scriptura: by scripture only. In short, the Catholic belief is that they either go to Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.

Then, there's the Jews: they believe everyone goes to Heaven, but not the same Heaven. They believe that there are different levels of Heaven, with the highest being reserved for righteous Jews.

The honest truth is, no one can determine nor has the right to determine where one goes on Judgement. I can't say that I am saved, nor can anyone else. I can't say that other people are damned, nor can anyone else. Only God can Judge, and then we will know when that Judgement Day arrives. I'll note that this is a topic I'm not comfortable with, I find it scary to think about.


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-Stefán Karl Stefánsson
10 July, 1975 - 21 August, 2018.


Hyeokgeose
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18 Apr 2018, 3:08 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Also, when Christians are asked "Why is Christianity the best religion?" they will usually say "Christianity is a religion of peace." This raises further questions. For example, Jainism is one of the least violent religions in history. So ... is there any room in God's kingdom for Jains?

Additionally, the concept of "salvation by faith alone" makes little sense to me. This implies that a brutal theocrat has a better chance of salvation than a peaceful secularist.

None of this makes any sense to me. Discuss.


I overlooked this part of your post. I apologize for double posting.

What does it mean that "Christianity is the best"? There are many different answers depending on who you ask.
As for faith alone, it's usually a given that good faith means you'll have good works and "Fight the good fight of faith." I think people that argue against those with the doctrine of "faith alone" kind of misuse it against them as a way of trying to mock or belittle them and "win" some kind of debate or argument. I grew up with a Baptist Christian background, began my journey in 2015. In Baptist Christianity, they don't hold the doctrine "by faith alone" or sola fide; even then, Baptists understand that faith and works are intertwined.

Now, here's something that people do when they're hardcore on the "works" part: they'll do the works all for publicity, while Baptists more or less are supposed to keep it private and not do it for the sake of publicity but rather for God alone. I know there's Christians that believe other people have to be watching for it to count -- that's simply incorrect since God sees all.

As for the religion of peace; well, if one is fundamentalist in the teachings of Christ (mind you, Christian fundamentals goes to that of following Christ -- there's a misconception that fundamentalists follow Mosaic law, which is Jewish fundamentalism), which really should be all Christians (but unfortunately isn't), then I think one is more likely to be peaceful. Unfortunately, many sects of Christianity follow human traditions, of which many have pagan roots, and promote human tradition above simply following Christ alone.

Of course, Christianity has been used as a tool by the ambitious, which the ambitious will use any tools they have at their disposal to gain popular support, bending various religions or beliefs to fit their rhetoric.

I will say this: I really hope I didn't offend anyone; but, unfortunately, my post is going to be deemed offensive by those with sharp theological disagreement. Theology can be pretty heated unfortunately. :cry:

Also, I am not an expert by any means... this is what I've come to understand so far; I post this in hopes that perhaps I, too, can be enlightened, and not lean on my own understanding.


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-Stefán Karl Stefánsson
10 July, 1975 - 21 August, 2018.


naturalplastic
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18 Apr 2018, 3:41 pm

A number of Christians repeat the quote that "we will all be shocked to find who is there, and at who is not there".

By that I assume they mean that individuals like Mother Theresa may have screwed in their private life and not be there, and individuals like Jeffrey Daumier might have made good with the almighty at the last minute and be there, or something. So if you are lucky enough to make the cut and get to Heaven you will be gobsmacked at who is not there shake hands with you, and equally at who is there.

Skeptics claim that the modern concept of Heaven and Hell is actually nowhere to be found in the Bible. All that stuff about the virtuous being rewarded by "going to Heaven" etc. Not there.

Supposedly all that the Bible says about the afterlife is that the good sleep, and then rise up on Judgement day. And the they all join Jesus army at armegeddon, and then win. And guess you to experience the 1000 year reign of peace after that.

But one day I actually looked up the word "Heaven" in the concordance of the King James Bible. The concordance is like an index, sorta. It cites all of the usages of a particular word in the Bible. The word "Heaven" crops up a lot in both the Old and in the New Testmants. But in the old Testament its only used to mean "the sky above"(in sentences about the clouds, stars, weather).

But in the New Testament there are sentences that say things like "The virtuous shall dwell besides the Father in Heaven". So it looks to me like those Skeptics are wrong, and that the modern notion of Heaven and Hell, and the notion that Heaven is a place you go to as a reward in the afterlife, does have SOME roots in scripture in the New Testament.



Pepe
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18 Apr 2018, 7:13 pm

VIDEODROME wrote:

https://youtu.be/8d85DsKjvU8

Copy and paste the link outside the youtube insertion...
Some people, including me, just see a blank post...


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I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Hate me for who I am...Not for who you think I am..."
You have been weighed...you have been measured...and you have been found wanking...:P
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


Pepe
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18 Apr 2018, 7:28 pm

Quote:
At the end of the movie no one is left believing in sanctuary (life after death) and they know that everything they have believed is a lie.

David Marti http://www.transparencynow.com/letters/loglet.htm

Agreed...

Logan's Run: No Sanctuary
https://youtu.be/V_ZFZcxsIdE


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I'm not here to change the world...There isn't a big enough soiled nappy bin... ;)
Autistic/scout motto: "Give me a better argument and I will listen..."
"Hate me for who I am...Not for who you think I am..."
You have been weighed...you have been measured...and you have been found wanking...:P
"Honesty is not a social duty, not a sacrifice for the sake of others, but the most profoundly selfish virtue man can practice: his refusal to sacrifice the reality of his own existence to the deluded consciousness of others."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8) I'm a rationalist...Deal with it...:mrgreen:


magz
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19 Apr 2018, 2:36 am

I think you should conduct a series of scientifically rigorous experiments to find out.


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VIDEODROME
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19 Apr 2018, 3:56 am

Pepe wrote:
VIDEODROME wrote:

https://youtu.be/8d85DsKjvU8

Copy and paste the link outside the youtube insertion...
Some people, including me, just see a blank post...


Just saw it's blank for me to. I wasn't sure what is going on with YouTube on WP, but I'll post the link like that from now on.



bobaspie2015
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20 Apr 2018, 1:09 am

“Hell” is the worry of one that lives in a world with no 'saviour.' This person is forever seeking a way of escape from the hellish thoughts that go on in his mind.
“Salvation” is one who accepts Jesus Christ as their Saviour. We make a mental choice to accept Jesus as our God.
To accept Jesus is to put total faith in Him to save us which He will, all you are required to do is BELIEVE. It is no longer up to us to try and save ourselves. So we relax our thoughts and all thought of hell simply fades away because we know; accept and understand.
People make such a big deal of Salvation, I think most people want Salvation to be difficult.
About 12 years ago I was having difficulty with such a simple Salvation so I started to think of it like this.
*Scenario*
I need to get an important package to my friend in another town. I have no transport so I will have to walk the 50 miles to deliver the package.
I worry so much about the walk because I am not so sure I will even make the journey; where will I get water? Where can I eat? Where can I sleep?
Then a friend of mine say, 'hey why not get this guy to deliver it? He is a man of his word and He will not ever let you down.'
So I ring this guy and He say's 'YES I will deliver the package for you, rest assure it is DONE.'
Immediately my whole mind and body is at rest and I no longer have all the worry over my head. *end of Scenario*


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Cash__
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21 Apr 2018, 8:58 pm

I don't really believe in a place called heaven, so nobody.



DarthMetaKnight
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22 Apr 2018, 11:26 pm

I just thought of something else.

Perhaps we should also consider the people who developed monotheism at a time when polytheism was more popular.

We need to remember that monotheism didn't just come out of nowhere instantly. It gradually emerged out of polytheism. For example, the ancient Israelites originally had a pantheon. Judaism emerged when the Israelites decided to focus their attention on Yahweh.

That's why the God of the Old Testament says "You shall have no other gods before me." instead of saying "I am the only God." At the time that this verse was written, the Israelites believed that Yahweh was the greatest God ... though they did not completely dismiss the existence of other deities.

The people of the Druze faith Respect Jesus and Mohammad, but they also respect Akhenaten, Plato and Socrates.

They recognize that Akhenaten paved the way for monotheism by refusing to worship any God but Aten. They also recognize that Socrates and Plato paved the way for monotheism because they doubted the existence of the Ancient Greek pantheon.

Here's the point that I am trying to make: The history of religion is more complicated than some people think. The psychology of religion is pretty complex as well. Therefore, we should not pretend to know everything regarding the nature of salvation.


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