Incel terrorism
07 Sep 2018, 7:13 pm
RetroGamer87 wrote:
She told her boyfriend to beat me up and he did but that wouldn't show
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
Of course not: it’ll rightly show up in the statistics of what men will do to impress a woman, and socially awkward dudes like us would be well advised to note that
1) they’re very likely to find themselves on the receiving end of the violence, and
2) they’re also likely to be taken precisely as examples of the bad behavior they suffer from others, if not to be considered outright perverts who can’t be trusted anywhere near a woman, and hence deserving of any violence they get.
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techstepgenr8tion
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07 Sep 2018, 7:26 pm
To the extent that one might find themselves on the receiving end the apprehension that they're of low social or economic status, part of the never-ending embarrassment of going out to shop, going to get gasoline, just trying to make your way in the public sphere is having to do all kinds of extra things to demonstrate to other people (a lot of women but, true, some premadonna guys) that you're not jonesing to rape them. That can include taking a different street into your development because you were driving behind someone longer than was comfortable, or stopping to window shop, not because you want to but because someone your age was walking in the same direction by themselves and you don't even want to be near them because you don't want to be wrestling with the implied accusations. It's hardly any wonder then that people who have to contemplate these things constantly may increasingly build up certain things in their body language, which would target them as threats.
All of this makes me really wonder if the problem here has far, far less to do with gender dynamics and much more to do with the notion that we treat Dunbar's number as irrelevant. We used to live in small village, surrounded by people who could attest to our character. To a degree that was a prison because what you did as a kid hung around your neck just about to your last dying day but at the same time in our current culture, the moment you leave the immediate sphere of people who know just about everything there is to know about you and think you're okay or even a laudable human being, all of that good will all but dissipates the moment you're out among strangers again.
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RetroGamer87
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08 Sep 2018, 6:52 am
Spiderpig wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
She told her boyfriend to beat me up and he did but that wouldn't show
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
Of course not: it’ll rightly show up in the statistics of what men will do to impress a woman
I don't believe anyone is keeping statistics on violent acts done by men to impress women. I would suggest that it would instead show up in the statistics of violent acts committed by men, motives not being considered.
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RetroGamer87
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08 Sep 2018, 6:54 am
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
All of this makes me really wonder if the problem here has far, far less to do with gender dynamics and much more to do with the notion that we treat Dunbar's number as irrelevant. We used to live in small village, surrounded by people who could attest to our character. To a degree that was a prison because what you did as a kid hung around your neck just about to your last dying day but at the same time in our current culture, the moment you leave the immediate sphere of people who know just about everything there is to know about you and think you're okay or even a laudable human being, all of that good will all but dissipates the moment you're out among strangers again.
Perhaps I would have been safer if the number of students in my school had been equal to or less than Dunbar's number.
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techstepgenr8tion
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08 Sep 2018, 9:23 am
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Perhaps I would have been safer if the number of students in my school had been equal to or less than Dunbar's number.
Probably not. I think part of the problem with school is it's a bunch of human animals wedged into a social situation that in some ways approximates prison. It takes a bunch of people whose frontal lobes haven't fully developed yet anyway and who don't have great impulse control and then puts them under each other's thumb. The whole thing ends up being more than a little coercive and I don't think it has great moral effects in the end math.
From your example though - that women can do that to men (ie. get other guys to beat a guy up over personal dislike) is a particular way that they're able to wield either an exchange of value or the promise of an exchange of value. Human beings likely are gnarly and antisocial by nature to a degree, plenty of people like this tend to just happen, knowing that though I have to wonder which scenarios give them more power or less power to distort moral reality for the people around them.
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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin
08 Sep 2018, 9:27 am
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Mythos wrote:
But if we were, for a minute, to speak of the nature of men as being the majority of perpetrators, you could lay it down to testosterone most likely. Other than that, I don't really know.
It's some combination of testosterone and roles, but if I were to place my bet on which was the chicken and which was the egg - natural selection might have killed off the guys with low T, they needed to be providers for the tribe anyway so that's what was selected for, and testosterone needs to continue to be put to good use.
I agree, and I think in the modern day this changes somewhat as gender roles reverse and men are OK to portray the role of the nurturer, the "stay at home dad" in a sense. The irony is that it may be lack of testosterone that is now being more appreciated by women, I'm sure most want strong male figures but most require emotional support atop this. As a result, high testosterone may now be being left behind and could be the cause of these high T males becoming more prominent in assaults due to being left behind in this new paradigm. Just an idea, anyway.
Along the last few lines of that last point I just took a look to see which gender was getting hit harder by the opioid crisis, not the least bit surprised by what I found:
https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicat ... 2asc%22%7D
Not being a woman I don't know what degree of impact it has for society to tell you that you're unneeded, I'm sure it's not pleasant, but if the opioid crisis at all measures how each gender handles nihilism women are clearly handling it much better. For a lot of guys the 'your not needed' message is tantamount to getting a letter from Rome stating 'The emperor no longer requires your services' which is something like a euphemism for 'go kill yourself - immediately'. Perhaps we're not handling it well because we've had untold thousands of years of conditioning where an unused/unitilized male was supposed to do exactly that.
An interesting idea and one that hopefully can be dealt with more sensitivity. The idea of "fragile masculinity" as I've often seen as a stab against men who can't take criticism is often regarded as an insult but I think there's a lot of truth behind it for all men; males have a hardened exterior, but inside they're likely no more different than women, emotionally. I don't think they're entirely symmetrical but rather that they're closer than often imagined.
Also to hit this preemptively - I'm not saying the problem that I just addressed is somehow the fault of women, there's a way in this thread where that perception keeps coming back unsolicited. I just want to zero in on some of the inherent epistemic problems that push guys to go rogue because, clearly, the topic of this thread is about a particular variant of that outcome and I think we can likely have a more productive conversation about the root causes because it's not nearly as politically distracting as the specific original topic.
The idea is that we can enumerate any amount of factors and extrapolate a very real cause if we don't categorise or point fingers. Doing so derails the conversation and becomes more a discussion related to, as you rightly claimed, politics over actual causes. Scoring points isn't what these discussions should be about.
I know this is a weird thing to say in a politics thread but what I mean is that we can talk at length about some of the more important and less divisive aspects of political influence in this epidemic, such as poverty, mental health, accessibility to deadly tools, etc., and this will allow us to actually get somewhere at the conclusion. Everything else is a needless pursuit.
techstepgenr8tion
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08 Sep 2018, 9:33 am
Mythos wrote:
I know this is a weird thing to say in a politics thread but what I mean is that we can talk at length about some of the more important and less divisive aspects of political influence in this epidemic, such as poverty, mental health, accessibility to deadly tools, etc., and this will allow us to actually get somewhere at the conclusion. Everything else is a needless pursuit.
It might only sound weird because of what a bulk of people do contrary to that approach. Makes perfect sense to me though.
_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin
08 Sep 2018, 9:49 am
RetroGamer87 wrote:
I don't believe anyone is keeping statistics on violent acts done by men to impress women. I would suggest that it would instead show up in the statistics of violent acts committed by men, motives not being considered.
Their loss!
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RetroGamer87
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08 Sep 2018, 6:47 pm
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Perhaps I would have been safer if the number of students in my school had been equal to or less than Dunbar's number.
Probably not. I think part of the problem with school is it's a bunch of human animals wedged into a social situation that in some ways approximates prison. It takes a bunch of people whose frontal lobes haven't fully developed yet anyway and who don't have great impulse control and then puts them under each other's thumb. The whole thing ends up being more than a little coercive and I don't think it has great moral effects in the end math.
From your example though - that women can do that to men (ie. get other guys to beat a guy up over personal dislike) is a particular way that they're able to wield either an exchange of value or the promise of an exchange of value. Human beings likely are gnarly and antisocial by nature to a degree, plenty of people like this tend to just happen, knowing that though I have to wonder which scenarios give them more power or less power to distort moral reality for the people around them.
I just saying that the statistics can be distorted when some women are committing acts of violence via proxy. That girl wanted to inflict bodily harm against me yet she'll never show up in the stats on violent acts committed by women. She didn't do it herself because she didn't need to.
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08 Sep 2018, 6:57 pm
But it only worked because the proxy gladly accepted his rôle.
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techstepgenr8tion
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08 Sep 2018, 7:24 pm
RetroGamer87 wrote:
I just saying that the statistics can be distorted when some women are committing acts of violence via proxy. That girl wanted to inflict bodily harm against me yet she'll never show up in the stats on violent acts committed by women. She didn't do it herself because she didn't need to.
In the literal though she didn't break out brass knuckles or a baton and start beating you though - she had a guy beat you up for her. You're right in that she masterminded you getting beat up also true that it's not technically female violence since she didn't do it herself.
It does underscore the point thought that the degree to which women move to harm others or move to harm men it's through character assassination (what they do to girls they don't like), legal manipulation, or other men on men sorts of means.
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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin
techstepgenr8tion
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09 Sep 2018, 1:18 pm
I posted this in another thread but they also do talk about intra-gender dynamics as it relates to agression, suicide, etc. among the sexes and it seems like a lot of what Jonathan's saying agrees with what we've been saying about male and female aggression toward their own not differing in quantity but in kind:
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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin
09 Sep 2018, 4:23 pm
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
She told her boyfriend to beat me up and he did but that wouldn't show
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
Of course not: it’ll rightly show up in the statistics of what men will do to impress a woman
I don't believe anyone is keeping statistics on violent acts done by men to impress women. I would suggest that it would instead show up in the statistics of violent acts committed by men, motives not being considered.
If women are as violent as men, why can't men convince women to commit acts of violence?
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RetroGamer87
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09 Sep 2018, 4:43 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
She told her boyfriend to beat me up and he did but that wouldn't show
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
Of course not: it’ll rightly show up in the statistics of what men will do to impress a woman
I don't believe anyone is keeping statistics on violent acts done by men to impress women. I would suggest that it would instead show up in the statistics of violent acts committed by men, motives not being considered.
If women are as violent as men, why can't men convince women to commit acts of violence?
They can.
However I don't believe women are violent as men.
I think that the statistics are misleading for a number of reasons and that many acts of violence committed by both sexes go unreported. It is impossible to quantify unreported crimes yet even if some omniscient being could, I still don't think it would reveal that women are as violent.
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10 Sep 2018, 2:33 pm
XFilesGeek wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
She told her boyfriend to beat me up and he did but that wouldn't show
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
Of course not: it’ll rightly show up in the statistics of what men will do to impress a woman
I don't believe anyone is keeping statistics on violent acts done by men to impress women. I would suggest that it would instead show up in the statistics of violent acts committed by men, motives not being considered.
If women are as violent as men, why can't men convince women to commit acts of violence?
10 Sep 2018, 3:17 pm
Mythos wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
Spiderpig wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
She told her boyfriend to beat me up and he did but that wouldn't show
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
up in the statistics of violent acts committed by women because she
personally never committed a single violent act against me.
Of course not: it’ll rightly show up in the statistics of what men will do to impress a woman
I don't believe anyone is keeping statistics on violent acts done by men to impress women. I would suggest that it would instead show up in the statistics of violent acts committed by men, motives not being considered.
If women are as violent as men, why can't men convince women to commit acts of violence?
Not to the same degree that women can convince men to commit acts of violence, apparently.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
