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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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16 May 2018, 1:09 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
If a guy is what you would call objectively physically attractive and labels himself an incel and relates with these guys who go on murderous rampages, I don't think it's possible that he's actually a decent person. Decent people don't post the sort of things these guys do online about women. When you label someone as incel in a thread about murderous terrorism like what the Toronto van attack guy did, they are going to get lumped in with the bad guys.

That's a lot of backward causation. The incel community didn't form years ago around the future nationally/internationally reported murders acted out by a few men.

The other thing - I was talking about whether or not someone was involuntarily celibate and what goes into that. I'm sure not all people who are involuntarily celibate go on forums about it or become card-carrying incel members.


Since they are the kind that get activated online by hatred (you know, how terrorism often spreads among young males) on the forums dedicated to self-identified "incels", that is who we are talking about in this thread. The ones who self identify and post hateful s**t about women. That is who this thread is about, that is the type that becomes violent and dangerous. The thread is called "Incel terrorism" and it's about the guys who visit those forums and post there about women being evil and how we all deserve rape and murder. So that's what we're talking about, not the ones who don't post hateful material about women and who don't want to murder and are "decent". The thread is asking what can we do about the hateful ones who post on those forums and are trying to foment more violence against women.



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16 May 2018, 1:21 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Since they are the kind that get activated online by hatred (you know, how terrorism often spreads among young males) on the forums dedicated to self-identified "incels", that is who we are talking about in this thread. The ones who self identify and post hateful s**t about women. That is who this thread is about, that is the type that becomes violent and dangerous. The thread is called "Incel terrorism" and it's about the guys who visit those forums and post there about women being evil and how we all deserve rape and murder. So that's what we're talking about, not the ones who don't post hateful material about women and who don't want to murder and are "decent". The thread is asking what can we do about the hateful ones who post on those forums and are trying to foment more violence against women.

In that case I would have to hope that this attention invites serious clinical research into these guys to see what's behind it and that we can actually get some worthwhile answers as to what the meaningful correlations and subsequent best interventions are. Past that I'm iffy as to whether the public writ-large has the self awareness or self-inquiry in its toolkit to get it right on anecdote.


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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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16 May 2018, 1:25 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
Since they are the kind that get activated online by hatred (you know, how terrorism often spreads among young males) on the forums dedicated to self-identified "incels", that is who we are talking about in this thread. The ones who self identify and post hateful s**t about women. That is who this thread is about, that is the type that becomes violent and dangerous. The thread is called "Incel terrorism" and it's about the guys who visit those forums and post there about women being evil and how we all deserve rape and murder. So that's what we're talking about, not the ones who don't post hateful material about women and who don't want to murder and are "decent". The thread is asking what can we do about the hateful ones who post on those forums and are trying to foment more violence against women.

In that case I would have to hope that this attention invites serious clinical research into these guys to see what's behind it and that we can actually get some worthwhile answers as to what the meaningful correlations and subsequent best interventions are. Past that I'm iffy as to whether the public writ-large has the self awareness or self-inquiry in its toolkit to get it right on anecdote.


Yet it is happening in our time, and so we are tasked to deal with it. Talking about it publicly is how that starts.



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16 May 2018, 1:28 pm

Based on other recent editorials, there's a big market for think pieces trying to sympathize with various deplorable people, if anyone wants to earn a few bucks.


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16 May 2018, 1:47 pm

^ I think one thing that's actually been helpful for me was watching events like Dave Rubin's in California from a few weeks ago where the SJW's actually spoke up. When they're just making noise from a distance they look like rabid lunatics and when they actually do get the microphone I get to see that they're demonstrations of certain personality types and it's something of a memo on how they process and assimilate information, and to an extent there probably are some legitimate grievances buried in there but they aren't being articulated and average out on value and need about as much added filtering and interpretation as the InfoWars crowd.

That and yes, after going on a long rant about confusing incels with Incels I'll clarify - I mean the eyesore SJW's.

What such thinkers are worth perhaps is that they're good at demonstrating that nothing happens in a vacuum and when it seems to be it's really quite worth getting down to the root cause. I think that effort is what's being attempted there much more often than people simply licking their finger, sticking it out in the wind to taste the weather, and cashing their contrarian checks because they sense it's a good time to do so.


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16 May 2018, 3:57 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
If a guy is what you would call objectively physically attractive and labels himself an incel and relates with these guys who go on murderous rampages, I don't think it's possible that he's actually a decent person. Decent people don't post the sort of things these guys do online about women. When you label someone as incel in a thread about murderous terrorism like what the Toronto van attack guy did, they are going to get lumped in with the bad guys.

That's a lot of backward causation. The incel community didn't form years ago around the future nationally/internationally reported murders acted out by a few men.

The other thing - I was talking about whether or not someone was involuntarily celibate and what goes into that. I'm sure not all people who are involuntarily celibate go on forums about it or become card-carrying incel members.


Since they are the kind that get activated online by hatred (you know, how terrorism often spreads among young males) on the forums dedicated to self-identified "incels", that is who we are talking about in this thread. The ones who self identify and post hateful s**t about women. That is who this thread is about, that is the type that becomes violent and dangerous. The thread is called "Incel terrorism" and it's about the guys who visit those forums and post there about women being evil and how we all deserve rape and murder. So that's what we're talking about, not the ones who don't post hateful material about women and who don't want to murder and are "decent". The thread is asking what can we do about the hateful ones who post on those forums and are trying to foment more violence against women.


I'm not sure why, in threads where we're clearly discussing violent, hate-filled incels, someone needs to jump in with #notallincels.

We know not all incels are violent. In this thread, we're talking about the ones that are.


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16 May 2018, 4:04 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
I'm not sure why, in threads where we're clearly discussing violent, hate-filled incels, someone needs to jump in with #notallincels.

I think part of the problem is that there's no distinction in language. It could be that we're usually all asked to walk on eggshells in our nuancing when discussing most groups and I'm used to that being the 'subgroup of a subgroup' queue which is missing here.


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16 May 2018, 4:27 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
If a guy is what you would call objectively physically attractive and labels himself an incel and relates with these guys who go on murderous rampages, I don't think it's possible that he's actually a decent person. Decent people don't post the sort of things these guys do online about women. When you label someone as incel in a thread about murderous terrorism like what the Toronto van attack guy did, they are going to get lumped in with the bad guys.

That's a lot of backward causation. The incel community didn't form years ago around the future nationally/internationally reported murders acted out by a few men.

The other thing - I was talking about whether or not someone was involuntarily celibate and what goes into that. I'm sure not all people who are involuntarily celibate go on forums about it or become card-carrying incel members.


Since they are the kind that get activated online by hatred (you know, how terrorism often spreads among young males) on the forums dedicated to self-identified "incels", that is who we are talking about in this thread. The ones who self identify and post hateful s**t about women. That is who this thread is about, that is the type that becomes violent and dangerous. The thread is called "Incel terrorism" and it's about the guys who visit those forums and post there about women being evil and how we all deserve rape and murder. So that's what we're talking about, not the ones who don't post hateful material about women and who don't want to murder and are "decent". The thread is asking what can we do about the hateful ones who post on those forums and are trying to foment more violence against women.


I'm not sure why, in threads where we're clearly discussing violent, hate-filled incels, someone needs to jump in with #notallincels.

We know not all incels are violent. In this thread, we're talking about the ones that are.



This is so deja vu here on wp; it’s exactly like when men discuss their experiences with gold digger women for instance and someone needs to jump in with “not all women”.



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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16 May 2018, 4:30 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
I'm not sure why, in threads where we're clearly discussing violent, hate-filled incels, someone needs to jump in with #notallincels.

I think part of the problem is that there's no distinction in language. It could be that we're usually all asked to walk on eggshells in our nuancing when discussing most groups and I'm used to that being the 'subgroup of a subgroup' queue which is missing here.


The problem is you making distinctions where none are necessary. This conversation is clearly about self-labelled incels that belong to incel forums and post online about what it means to be incel (to virulently hate and want to kill women and men who don't hate women as much as they do, and to push each other to commit terrorist acts against non-incel--ie. "normal"--society.)



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16 May 2018, 4:38 pm

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
The problem is you making distinctions where none are necessary. This conversation is clearly about self-labelled incels that belong to incel forums and post online about what it means to be incel (to virulently hate and want to kill women and men who don't hate women as much as they do, and to push each other to commit terrorist acts against non-incel--ie. "normal"--society.)

I notice that you and XFiles are both seem to be offering that people aren't this dumb thus the distinction should be common sense. The politics these days is so dumb that, just on the ground of what people do take seriously enough to act on, I have a tough time taking that for granted.

That said - when you clarified what you mean, I believe you and I'd take your word for it. That's all it really took was clarifying that point.


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16 May 2018, 4:48 pm

I'd add - that we all spend this much time dancing on our verbiage or asking others to dance, it goes to show just how much our culture in the west sucks right now. I'd love to think in a decade or two such eggshell-walking could be a thing of ancient memory, and I'm sure having a real media would help a great deal on that front.


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karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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16 May 2018, 5:28 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
The problem is you making distinctions where none are necessary. This conversation is clearly about self-labelled incels that belong to incel forums and post online about what it means to be incel (to virulently hate and want to kill women and men who don't hate women as much as they do, and to push each other to commit terrorist acts against non-incel--ie. "normal"--society.)

I notice that you and XFiles are both seem to be offering that people aren't this dumb thus the distinction should be common sense. The politics these days is so dumb that, just on the ground of what people do take seriously enough to act on, I have a tough time taking that for granted.

That said - when you clarified what you mean, I believe you and I'd take your word for it. That's all it really took was clarifying that point.


I just thought the intention of the OP was pretty clear in the subject of the thread. There's just no need to make the discussion about the ones not involved in the terrorism when the thread is clearly labelled to be about terrorism. The fanatical ones are self-labelling as such online in incel forums.



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16 May 2018, 5:39 pm

I think we just ended up talking past each other longer than we would have imagined. The question of what bearing a guy's looks had on his being incel and how much of that had to link back to personality touched on a broader issue and I think that's how the conversation shunted off in that direction. I can't tell where I actually veered from not all incels who are physically attractive are terrible people to #notallincels but it either snuck up on me or was offered to me before I realized that's where it was getting taken.


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17 May 2018, 12:48 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
If a guy is what you would call objectively physically attractive and labels himself an incel and relates with these guys who go on murderous rampages, I don't think it's possible that he's actually a decent person. Decent people don't post the sort of things these guys do online about women. When you label someone as incel in a thread about murderous terrorism like what the Toronto van attack guy did, they are going to get lumped in with the bad guys.

That's a lot of backward causation. The incel community didn't form years ago around the future nationally/internationally reported murders acted out by a few men.

The other thing - I was talking about whether or not someone was involuntarily celibate and what goes into that. I'm sure not all people who are involuntarily celibate go on forums about it or become card-carrying incel members.


Since they are the kind that get activated online by hatred (you know, how terrorism often spreads among young males) on the forums dedicated to self-identified "incels", that is who we are talking about in this thread. The ones who self identify and post hateful s**t about women. That is who this thread is about, that is the type that becomes violent and dangerous. The thread is called "Incel terrorism" and it's about the guys who visit those forums and post there about women being evil and how we all deserve rape and murder. So that's what we're talking about, not the ones who don't post hateful material about women and who don't want to murder and are "decent". The thread is asking what can we do about the hateful ones who post on those forums and are trying to foment more violence against women.


I'm not sure why, in threads where we're clearly discussing violent, hate-filled incels, someone needs to jump in with #notallincels.

We know not all incels are violent. In this thread, we're talking about the ones that are.



This is so deja vu here on wp; it’s exactly like when men discuss their experiences with gold digger women for instance and someone needs to jump in with “not all women”.


Yup.

I've had to lock a few threads because of that. In the WP battle of the sexes, men and women tend to talk past each other.


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17 May 2018, 3:12 pm

Aspies? Talk past each other!? Never.....! ! :wink:


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